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> [V:tM] [分析帖] Ur-Shulgi和巴力的种种, 搬运
Lord Ex
2020-02-23, 10:57
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出处:
从此帖的第53楼开始:
http://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/main-ca...n-info-on/page4

我只翻译Undead Rabbit的回复。


This post has been edited by Lord Ex: 2020-09-14, 14:18
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Lord Ex
2020-02-23, 10:57
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53楼:
QUOTE
blackshade

Ur-Shulgi。我想知道他是否是那个未知的巴力。我还想了解更多关于他和Haqim的关系的东西。Ur-Shulgi真的是他的使者或者他就是单纯的混蛋?他吸榨了Haqim吗?或者他可能就是Haqim!他们之间的关系可有很多故事可讲。
自从贝克特吉哈德日记(译注:以下简称BJD)延续了那段氏族书砍掉的关于他起源的文章后,Ur-Shulgi的秘密如今已经明朗得多了。而且对于绝大多数人对他的怀疑,Assamite氏族书的作者也或多或少地在披露。

现在的情况似乎是这样的:

1)他是诸多巴力创始者之一,第三版的ST手册中的毁灭者巴尔(Baal the Destroyer)和可追溯到第二城的奴孩(the Slave Boy)(夜之子)

2)他来自产生了巴力的第一部族,而他的灵魂早已注定了要受诅。他被Haqim初拥来联合巴力又公开和他们作战(氏族书被砍掉的内容和BJD)

3)他可能是个生而受诅者(同样出自那段被砍掉的内容),也是毫无疑问的Assamite族中暗黑奇术(Dark Thaumaturgy )的最厉害的专家。

4)他对宗教的敌意可能和巴力的氏族弱点(信仰和信仰符号)有更多关系——这被Assamite氏族书的作者所证实。

5)现在看来他似乎不是作为Haqim的使者在行动,而是有着更邪恶的打算,可能和墨西哥城Nergal(译注:就是Huitzilopochtli)的崛起以及由Toreador马里/米迦勒所创造的君士坦丁堡的牺牲之井(Well of Sacrifice of Costantinople)(BJD),或者与Ashur的原处之井(First Well)的觉醒(V20黑手书)相关。

V20花了很大功夫来把巴力放在故事线的中心。

原文:
QUOTE
QUOTE
Originally posted by blackshade

Ur-shulgi. I want to know if he is the unnamed baali. I also want to know more about his relationship with Haqim. Is Ur-shulgi really his herald or is he full of shit? Did he eat Haqim? Or maybe he is Haqim! Lots of stories could be told around their relationship.

Ur-Shulgi secrets are today much more clear since BJD resumed the origin that were originally cut from the Assamite Clanbook. Besides the writer of the Assamite Clanbook more ore less confirmed what most people suspected about the Herald.


The current situation look like these:

1)He is one of the many Baali founders, the Baal the Destroyer described in the Revised Stortyteller handbook and the Slave boy brought back to the second city (Children of the Night).


2) He came from the First Tribe tha generated the Baali and his soul was already marked for damnation. He was embraced by Haqim to unite the Baali and fight them in the open ( removed text from the Assamite Clanbook and now BJD).

3)Probably he was a widderslainte (from the phrasing of the prophecy made by Sarah Schneider), and for sure he was the greatest expert in the Assamite Clan of Dark Thaumaturgy (V20 Dark Ages).

4)His hostility towards religions is probably more related to the clan weakness of the Baali (Faith and faith symbols), this was confirmed by the writer of the Assamite Clanbook.

5)Currently it doesn't seem he is acting on behalf of Haqim, but he's moving toward a more sinister agenda, maybe related with the resurgence of Nergal in Mexico City and the creation of the Well of Sacrifice of Costantinople made by Mari/Michael (BJD) or with the awakening the of the First Well at Ashur (V20 Black Hand).
V20 made quite the effort to put back the Baali at the center of the Metaplot.

This post has been edited by Lord Ex: 2020-02-24, 10:43
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Lord Ex
2020-02-23, 11:25
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61楼:
人物Ur-Shulgi和Assamite氏族书的作者Clayton Oliver的个人主页:

http://www.assamites.com/urshulgi.htm

QUOTE
当Baali全体进攻第二城时,先祖神秘地失踪了,但却及时的现身并阻止了他的子嗣,也把恶魔从其附身的躯体上撕扯了下来,而当这场战争结束时,他宣称他发现了一个倒在战场上的孩童——一个唯有初拥才能解救的无辜受害者。他时刻关注着这个孩童来确保他的安全。
 我猜他没有关注多久。因为数种精神毒药已经植入了这个孩子的体内,而无论先祖做什么,他的灵魂永远都不可能真正纯净了。而它在去年醒来了,现在它成为了山中老人。它不是Baali,也没有被附身,我们也的确不认为它不会效忠于或与任何邪恶的力量共事,但它是一个活例子——它的整体远比部分的总和要强大得多,它再也不是Haqim的子孙,不真的是。它要多一些什么,又要少一些什么。

这个先知Sarah Schneier(译注:书中此段文章的作者)甚至逐字地引用了ST手册中对毁灭者Baal的描述。

QUOTE
在,或者据说是原初时代,第一部族的一人反抗了十三氏族。这个恶魔般的背叛者——因上古者那错误的娱乐而诞生的他的最年长的子嗣,美索不达米亚最初的子民中的一个下等的歌唱奴孩,和那些栖息在世界外围的暗影中的生物签订了不洁的契约。做出了如此行为后,这个魔童获得了天外世界的一些东西,成为了比人类多一些什么——又要少一些什么——的存在。在召唤了他同胞中的信徒后,这个被称为毁灭者的Baal,首位Shaitan,整合了他的军队并打败了第二城;当该隐子嗣们在被夷平的废墟和灼烧的平原内斗时,血亲屠戮着血亲。最后据传先祖本人将他的注意力转移到了战斗上——这是一个灾难性的时刻,天空下着火雨和血水,他们的恶魔大军被击溃。然而那个男孩般的生物就此没有任何下落,而曾经忠于他每个命令的恐怖生物也就此消失在历史的烟云中。

而且,Ur-Shulgi的人物卡使用了对毁灭者Baal的描述来说明他的初拥日期。

来自夜之子他的卡
QUOTE
一段对血之寓言的翻译讲道Ur-Shulgi的初拥发生在“ 一个石头开口,天降血雨的夜晚。


毁灭者巴尔的描述
QUOTE
最后据传先祖本人将他的注意力转移到了战斗上——这是一个灾难性的时刻,天空下着火雨和血水,


这段和V20的幽暗纪元伴书(Dark Age Companion)的很像

QUOTE
战斗摧毁了庙宇,让其中古老的石头掉下,并使用地狱之火烧灼着地面上的废墟。


而且书中对Shaitan命运的描述和Ur-Shulgi的很像

QUOTE
该隐举起了他的手并击打Shaitan,然后他的头发从头上掉落,他的双眼在眼眶中燃烧,他的皮肤溃疡。该隐再次举起了他的手并击打Shaitan,他的骨头被扭曲骨折,使他无法再站立。该隐最后一次举起了他的手并击打Shaitan,他失去了他的所有力量。然后该隐逃走了,直到所有秘密都会被揭晓的火焚末日的夜晚,他才会再次被他的子嗣所看见。

夜之子中Ur-Shulgi的外表
QUOTE
时间对Ur-Shulgi并不仁慈,至少并不比心兽和无数的挑战者仁慈。看起来没有人能受这么多的伤,就像一个被灼烤过的孩子,年轻的战神化身出生在烈火与暴力之中。他的皮肤因年龄的缘故已经是黑耀石一般的了,上面的伤疤纵横交错,当麦修撒拉激动时就呈现出血红色。一些骨骼和肌肉裸露了出来,就像是表皮曾被剥去一样。而且Ur-Shulgi的眼睛不是一眨不眨的凝视着某物就是像燃烧着一样,就像是能穿透障碍物看到背后的东西一样。当他穿着衣服时,Ur-Shulgi总是穿着一件毫无修饰的亮色长袍,带着骨制的或琥珀制的项链。

原文:
QUOTE
Personal page of the creator of Ur-Shulgi and Clanbook Assamite, Clayton Oliver

http://www.assamites.com/urshulgi.htm

译注:这段只摘取他加粗的段落,原文是把整个文章都贴上来了...
QUOTE
When the Baali assaulted the Second City en masse, the Ancestor was off on one of his mysterious disappearances. He made it back just in time to stop his childe and tear the demon out of the body that it rode, and when the battle was over he claimed that he had found the child dying on the battlefield and the Embrace was the only way to save that innocent victim. Then he watched the child to make sure that it was safe to have around.

I guess he did not watch long enough. Some sort of spiritual seed stayed in the child, and that soul was never truly clean anyway, no matter what the Ancestor did. And it woke up last year, and now it is the Eldest. It is not Baali, and it is not possessed, and we do not think it is not working with or for anything infernal, but it is a case where the whole is greater than the sum of its parts, and it is not one of Haqim's Children any more, not really. It is something more, and it is something less.

The prophecy even quoted, sometimes word by word, the entry about Baal the Destroyer in the Storyteller Handbook.

QUOTE
In the earliest times, or so it is believed, one of the First Brood stood against the Thirteen. This fiendish traitor — eldest childe of an Antediluvian’s errant dalliance, lowborn singing slave boy to a
proto-Mesopotamian people, forged an unholy pact with those who dwelt in shadow outside the periphery of this world. In so doing, the devil-child took on something of the place Beyond, becoming something more — and less — than human. Gathering apostles from the ranks of his brethren, the first shaitan of Baal-called- Destroyer marshaled his armies and laid siege to the Second City; Blood met Blood as Caine’s childer fought one another amidst razed ruins and flame-swept plains. At length, it is whispered, the progenitor himself turned his attention to the fray — a terrible cataclysmic time in which the skies rained fire and wept blood. The battle ended as abruptly as it had begun; the 12 al’shaitani were put to death, and their demonic hordes were routed. Of the boy-thing, however, there was no sign, and the horrors that had once paid fealty to his every command were lost to the whispering winds of legend.

Even more, Ur-Shulgi Character sheet use the terms used in the entry of Baal the Destroyer for his embrace date.

From Ur-Shulgi sheet in Children of the Night

QUOTE
Embraced:
The night when the stones spoke and the skies cried a blood rain

from the Baal the Destroyer entry

QUOTE
At length, it is whispered, the progenitor himself turned his attention to the fray — a terrible cataclysmic time in which the skies rained fire and wept blood

An entry which by the way was very similar to the entry the Baali war in the Dark Age companion

QUOTE
The battle shattered the temple bringing down its ancient stones and searing the ground about the ruins with hellfires.

And the physical destiny of Shaitan was the same of Ur-Shulgi

Dark Age Companion

QUOTE
Caine raised his hand and struck Shaitan, and his hair fell from his head, his eyes burned in his sockets and his skin itched with sores. Caine raised his and and struck Shaitan a second time, and his bones twisted an broke and he could no longer stand. Caine raised his and struck Shaitan one final time, and all his power left him. Then Caine walked away, never to be seen again by his childer until the night of Gehenna, wehn all secrets will be revealed.

Ur-Shulgi appearance

QUOTE
Time has not been kind to Ur-Shulgi, nor have the ravages of the beast within him or the numerous enemies he has challenged. He looks like nothing so much as a scarred, burnt child, a young god born from fire and violence. His skin, obsidian-black with age, displays a lattice of scars, some of which weep blood when the methuselah becomes agitated. Here and there, bits of bone and sinew protrude from beneath his skin, as if its body has been flayed. Additionally, Ur-Shulgi's eyes have been either gouged or burnt away, though it claims to be able to see without hindrance. When it deigns to clothe itself, Ur-Shulgi wears unadorned, light-colored caftans and robes, often with a bone or amber necklace.

This post has been edited by Lord Ex: 2020-02-24, 10:43
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Lord Ex
2020-02-23, 13:18
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62楼:
总的来说,在第三版时还是秘密的一些事在BJD的分裂(Schism)一章乃至很多其他V20的拓展中都逐渐揭晓了

有时是暗示

V20 BJD 第107页

QUOTE
古代的可怕轶闻:对有野心的诺德学者来说,有关Ur-Shulgi(当它不可避免地苏醒时)的预言既可怕又需要勇气去面对。全世界都有长老苏醒的迹象,但Ur-Shulgi却是一个能追溯到第二城的相当有名的玛士撒拉。他存在的广为人知引发了一连串的对古代恐怖轶事历史的研究。Ur-Shulgi的初拥多少和巴力乃至Haqim有关的传言进一步抹黑了Assamite作为一个氏族的名誉——即使他们正在极力扑灭一位巴力的卷土重来在魔宴审判庭和几个密盟神秘学家中所引发的害怕。

V20幽暗纪元系列的秘隐巨著(Tomes of Secrets)

QUOTE
那些研习暗黑奇术的血族心中根本毫无内疚。Assamite们喃喃自语着那个年代——那个当暗黑奇术只是他们之中最古老之人之一——一个名为Ur-Shulgi的,在深入探索了禁忌秘术的黑暗深渊后休眠的巨兽的专属的年代——尽管在如今的夜晚同样有越来越多的血族试图精通这门异能,以与各种所谓的恶魔交易,在力量的金字塔上站稳脚跟。

有时是明着指出来了

QUOTE
MV:[一个用未知语言写成的神秘学咒语。没有译文。只有如下的词语是可以看懂的:Haqim。Tremere。Moloch。Shaitan。Ur-Shulgi。]

有时却非常的隐秘。
比如最初和最古老也是第一个巴力氏族的心路——海隆之道(Via Hyron)。

QUOTE
•成为复仇天使。精确计算着亚伯的死期,从该隐的子嗣那里夺回他失去的血,就像一个牧者剪去他牧群的羊毛一样。
•和宗教权威对抗。成制度的崇拜和各种教条只不过是路西法的教廷的面具和伪造品,而掌握真理的只有Abelene信条。Molochimare是牧者。
译注:Abelene creed,Molochimare求大佬解答...
•总是呆在毒巢(Nest)内。蜂巢(Hive)群内的毒巢是抵抗崇魔和恶魔势力的救世手段。
•吸血鬼是天外之物(One Above)所制造的暗影。当它照进了最幽深黑暗的阴云里时,作为吸血鬼的暗影只不过是被容许继续存在的黑暗。
•Molochim的神圣使命(The Sacred Mission of the Molochim )就是所有Abelenes要宣誓效忠的。除外还要不顾一切代价让沉睡者沉睡。
•听从你的心兽。天外之物将心兽给予给他的天使们是有原因的。留心它的低语并在愤怒时释放它的怒火。

原文:
QUOTE
The whole thing, that was kept secret at the time of Revised has come back in the chapter Schism and in many other entries of the V20 line.

Sometimes it is hinted

V20 Becket Jyhad Diary 107

QUOTE
Ancient Terrors: For aspiring Noddists, the prophecy concerning Ur-Shulgi (when it inevitably
gets out) is both terrifying and emboldening. There are signs of rising elders all over the place, but Ur-
Shulgi is a named and well-known Methuselah who supposedly dates back to the Second City. The revelation of his apparent existence sets off a flurry of research into the ancient horror’s history. Rumors that Ur-Shulgi’s Embrace somehow involved the Baali as well as Haqim further darken the reputation of the Assamites as a Clan, even as they stoke fears of a Baali resurgence among the Sabbat Inquisition and various Camarilla occultists.

V20 Dark Ages Tome of Secrets

QUOTE
Those studying Dark Thaumaturgy suffer no such compunction. Assamites murmur of a time when Dark Thaumaturgy was the province only of one of their eldest — a great beast named Ur-Shulgi, who fell torpid after probing too deeply into the dark recesses of forbidden sorcery — though these nights an increasing number of vampires attempt manipulations of the Discipline, consorting with demons of all breeds to gain a foothold on the ladder to power.

Sometimes it is screamed

QUOTE
MV: [An occult incantation in an unknown language. No subtitles. Only the following
words are intelligible: Haqim. Tremere. Moloch. Shaitan. Ur-Shulgi.]

And sometimes it is as subtle as hell.
Like the Via Hyron, which was the original and most ancient Road of the Baali the Clan, the first one.

QUOTE


•Be the Angel of Vengeance. Exact the toll of Abel and retrieve his stolen blood from Caine's children, like a shepherd shearing his flock.
•Combat the authority of religion. Institutional worship and dogma are masks and forgeries for Lucifer's church, including the Book of Nod. Only the Abelene creed holds the truth. The Molochimare the shepherds.

•Always be within a Nest. The Nest within the swarm of the Hive is the means of salvation to counter the infernal and demonic.
•Vampires are shadows cast by the One Above. When the One Above shines into a pit of blackest gloom, shadows are the only darkness permitted to remain.
•The Sacred Mission of the Molochim is the sworn duty of all Abelenes. Keep the Sleepers in dreams at the expense of all else.
•Listen to your Beast. The one above bestowed the Beast to his angels for a reason. Heed its counsel and release its fury when enraged.

This post has been edited by Lord Ex: 2020-02-24, 10:44
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Lord Ex
2020-02-23, 13:58
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64楼:
前段时间也有一些来自论坛上的Clayton Oliver本人的证实

译注:然后没了...估计是被吞掉了

原文:
QUOTE
There were also some time ago some "tacit confirmations" from Clayton Oliver himself here on the forum

66楼:
QUOTE
Saga
如果他真是巴力,他就不会那么急着寻找巴力来打破战士支系(译注:Warrior,应该是指Assamite族的一个支系
就我所知,没有任何资料表明他在寻找巴力。相反在他回归后,中东有大量的巴力复苏的传闻。

唯一相关的传闻就是他依旧无法终结巴力的诅咒,但随后Clayton Oliver在这个论坛暗示他没有破除巴力诅咒的意图。

QUOTE
而且V20不是官设(就是说,非正史),尽管第5版继承了很多。
呃... V20就是官设。而且不仅是官设,它就是事实上的第4版。*

就如同玛瑙路社区管理员在Reddit上说的一样
QUOTE
V20很明显是“故事线不清晰的”那种。核心规则书提供了一种错觉,既它既不很第2版,也不很第3版。它是提供了多种选项,来让玩家可以自己选取并游玩他们最喜欢的时期的吸血鬼游戏。
设定上是现在,但也是在很多故事线上的大事发生前。火焚末日依旧只是个遥远的即将在未来发生的事件,而不是即将在千禧年到来之际要发生的。
BJD接的故事线是第3版之后的,并为第5版做了铺垫。
当他说到“不清晰”时它只是在说核心书原本是作为介于第2和3版的中性并能用于两者的规则... 但在随后的拓展里“不清晰”就被丢掉了。

BJD,依旧是个V20拓展,如同其它一些在产品线历史上留下了深刻烙印的拓展一样,极大地推动了故事线。

译注:以下是他的举例,和本帖关系不大,我直接贴原文,反正看得懂的也不需要翻译

1) Carna's rebellion/ completely new

2) The return of Marcus Vitel and the war over Washington/completely new

3) The counter offensive of Pieterzoon in dixieland/ mostly new

4) The fall of Marcel Guillbeau as a prince of New Orleans, his seat taken by Caliburshi and the rise of the Voodon vampire/ completely new

5) The power play between Mithras and Anne Bowsley/ hinted, but never developed

6) Hardestadt's torpor-sickness-personal problems / almost out of the blue

7) The Gehenna crusade, the return of Nergal in mexico city and the candidacy of Lucita as Regent/ mostly new (Gehenna Crusade and Lucita run for Regency) or took back an old line that was closed (Nergal)

8) The secret war between Dastur Anosh and the True Black Hand, just as Benezri becoming Archibishop of Montreal/ Totally new the first one, just hinted the second

9) The Setite request to join the Camarilla/ new

10) Smiling Jack and Libertatia/ as far as I remember quite new

11) The Master of Raven cult and the crusade against the Inconnu / That's really new, Master of Raven was already a character, but with no cult and no quarrell with the Inconnu

12) Tremere taking over House Goratrix / Here we even changed established Canon, as Tremere in Revised got back to the Main Clan after taking over Goratrix

13) The resurgence of Hazimel / Not new the situation, which was described in Time of Thin Blood, but Hazimel in flesh and bone is new

14) Tzimisce leaving New York and the return of Ilyas Cel Frumos, Hellene Panhard becoming prince of New York / completely new the first two, just hinted the third

15) The destiny of Berlin after Berlin by Night / big advance here, Waldenburg lost his city and Wolff rised, the city is still divided in two and Strohman is a new character

16) Prospero, and the return of MIchael as the Tophet of Byzantium / So new that it pushed forward something that was closed since Costantinople by Night

17) The excision of the Dracon from Vykos / also new

18) The first moves of the Hecata, and the return of Lord Camden / New, even if there were some possible hint here and there in Revised if I recall correctly

19) Critias' school in Chicago/ new

书中唯一不是第三版之后剧情的就是关于Hazimel之眼的那章。

这些都是最新的剧情,并推动了故事线。而且BJD不是唯一一本推动故事线的书。

随着时间流逝,最初的”不清晰“变得越来越松动,《放任的叛党(Anarchs Unbound)》新增了许多有关叛党行动的故事,而这也是第5版叛党设定的基础,V20的黑手导读同样不是不清晰的。

*也是因为如果不是官方正设,白狼会倾向于大声指出,比如W20的破碎之梦(Shattered Dreams)。

原文:
QUOTE
QUOTE
Originally posted by Saga

If he was, he wouldn't actively be searching for Baali in order to break the Warrior's curse.
As far as I know, there are no source about Ur-Shulgi searching for the Baali. On the contrary after his return there is plenty of rumor of resurgence of the Baali in the Middle East.

The only thing that was said was that he still wasn't able to end the Baali curse, but later in this forum Clayton Oliver tacitly confirmed that Ur-Shulgi has no intention of breaking the Baali Curse.

QUOTE
And V20 was canon agnostic (meaning, not canon), though they're implementing a lot of it in V5.
Ehm...V20 is canon. And not only is canon, but is the canon 4th edition.*
Just as said by the onyxpath community manager on reddit

QUOTE
V20 is explicitly "metaplot agnostic." The core rulebook provided a default status that wasn't quite 2nd Edition, and wasn't quite Revised Edition. It provided options so people could pick it up and play whatever era of Vampire they liked best.
It's set in the present, but before a lot of the big metaplot happens. Gehenna is still a nebulous event that may happen in the future, rather than something that happened around the turn of the century.
Beckett's Jyhad Diary picks up the post-Revised metaplot, and sets the stage for V5.
When it says that is agnostic it just means that the Corebook was originally intended as neutral towards 2nd or Revised edition and usable for both... but the agnosticism later "dropped" in later entries.

BJD, which is still a V20 entry, pushed the metaplot ahead like few entries have made in the history of the brand.

1) Carna's rebellion/ completely new

2) The return of Marcus Vitel and the war over Washington/completely new

3) The counter offensive of Pieterzoon in dixieland/ mostly new

4) The fall of Marcel Guillbeau as a prince of New Orleans, his seat taken by Caliburshi and the rise of the Voodon vampire/ completely new

5) The power play between Mithras and Anne Bowsley/ hinted, but never developed

6) Hardestadt's torpor-sickness-personal problems / almost out of the blue

7) The Gehenna crusade, the return of Nergal in mexico city and the candidacy of Lucita as Regent/ mostly new (Gehenna Crusade and Lucita run for Regency) or took back an old line that was closed (Nergal)

8) The secret war between Dastur Anosh and the True Black Hand, just as Benezri becoming Archibishop of Montreal/ Totally new the first one, just hinted the second

9) The Setite request to join the Camarilla/ new

10) Smiling Jack and Libertatia/ as far as I remember quite new

11) The Master of Raven cult and the crusade against the Inconnu / That's really new, Master of Raven was already a character, but with no cult and no quarrell with the Inconnu

12) Tremere taking over House Goratrix / Here we even changed established Canon, as Tremere in Revised got back to the Main Clan after taking over Goratrix

13) The resurgence of Hazimel / Not new the situation, which was described in Time of Thin Blood, but Hazimel in flesh and bone is new

14) Tzimisce leaving New York and the return of Ilyas Cel Frumos, Hellene Panhard becoming prince of New York / completely new the first two, just hinted the third

15) The destiny of Berlin after Berlin by Night / big advance here, Waldenburg lost his city and Wolff rised, the city is still divided in two and Strohman is a new character

16) Prospero, and the return of MIchael as the Tophet of Byzantium / So new that it pushed forward something that was closed since Costantinople by Night

17) The excision of the Dracon from Vykos / also new

18) The first moves of the Hecata, and the return of Lord Camden / New, even if there were some possible hint here and there in Revised if I recall correctly

19) Critias' school in Chicago/ new

The only thing in the book that is not post-revised is the chapter about the Eye of Hazimel.

These are all new things that pushed forward the metaplot. And BJD is not the only book that pushed forward the metaplot.

The agnosticism has lessened more and more as time passed, Anarchs Unbound pushed a lor the story of the Anarch Movement, and is the root for the Anarchs in V5, and also Guide to the Tal'Mahe'ra is really not agnostic.

* Also because when something is not canon White Wolf tends to scream it out of loud, like it did with Shattered Dreams.

This post has been edited by Lord Ex: 2020-02-24, 10:45
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Lord Ex
2020-02-23, 14:32
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69楼:
QUOTE
Grumpy RPG Reviews
问题不是“Ur-Shulgi是否是巴力?”

问题应该是“Ur-Shulgi的忠诚到哪儿去了?”

我怀疑这家伙和Haqim有密切关系,就像Kupala和Tzimisce一样。不是说之间的关系好坏或者有多贴近,但总之他俩很亲密。

也就是说,换成其他NPC来说,我想知道Vykos现在在干啥,现在知道了,他摆脱了Dracon的控制。
现在真的不清楚。

而且,每只巴力都是有不同的打算的:Nergal是想直接召唤恶魔之力来摧毁世界,Moloch想限制并利用其力量,Ur-Shulgi是想要什么呢?尤其当他还是个巴力时?

原文:
QUOTE
QUOTE
Originally posted by Grumpy RPG Reviews
The question is not "Is Ur-Shulgi one of the Baali?"

The question is "Where do Ur-Shulgi's loyalties lie?"

I suspect the creature has a tight relationship with Haqim, in much the way Kupala and Tzimisce have a tight relationship. This is not to say happy or congenial, simply close.

That said, in terms of other characters, I want to know what Vykos is making of itself these days, now that it is rid of the Dracon.
That's really not clear currently.

Even more, there is the fact that every Baali has a very different agenda : Nergal wanted to summon the infernal power and destroy the world, Moloch wanted to keep the infernal powers at bay and use their powers, and what would Ur-Shulgi wanted, even when it was a Baali?

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2020-02-23, 14:49
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81楼:
你只不过是忘了巴力的初拥不是像其它氏族那样的

QUOTE
Saga
我真的不能理解Ur-Shulgi是第三只巴力的这种可能性
a)三分之二的术士支系都是他的后代,如果他是巴力,那他们的皮肤是如何随着时间流逝变黑的呢(除了Al-ashrad)
b)他的确初拥了Al-ashrad并且他也个Assamite
哦这不是第一次了。巴力的初拥不像其它任何氏族的。
比如说Petaniqua,确实是个是个迈卡维,但她的子嗣... 有时她初拥的是巴力,有时又是奇怪的迈卡维。

V20 红色名单
QUOTE
让Petaniqua很难被追踪的原因除了她的诸多假名和奇怪的说法方式外,就是她的子嗣。如今,没有一个人——甚至连Tzimisce族的知名学者Sascha Vykos——都完全不清楚她创造了多少吸血鬼。对一个子嗣来说,这个魔宴审判者可能是Cybele,巴力之一。对另一个来说,血族的血反映出她来自于混合了据说是解救了她的狼人的血的高度专一的血系。谁知道当她的子嗣知道真相时会发生什么呢?或者他们是被逼着帮助她暗杀迈卡维长老的?更糟的是,如果Camilla Bane最害怕的事——她的后代之一依旧活跃在密盟中——是真的呢?

而且,巴力成员不一定要通过初拥产生,也可以由你自己选择。

QUOTE
••••• •• 再次初拥
当绝大多数巴力都是通过初拥的传统方式产生的,在有些时候,也是通过吸血鬼决定离开他的血所绑定的氏族转而投向巴力的怀抱而产生的。
该祭礼并不复杂,但却需要能忍受折磨般重组灵魂的鲜活或即将死去的意志。当祭礼激活时,尊长要割开未来子嗣的喉咙,然后将血液滴进4个刻有古代和恶魔符文的碗中。这是为了移除能代表他们当前生存状态的一些东西,和普通的初拥非常像。尊长再把他自己的血滴在另4个同样的碗中,让它们以交替的顺序围绕着子嗣,子嗣躺在地上,流血,并越来越接近终亡,然后尊长呼唤着他们血系中最强大的恶魔,Namtaru的灵魂碎片,随后将其与子嗣的灵魂混合以腐化他,并将其变得和巴力更为接近。这一过程需要几小时完成。如果祭礼的这一部分以精湛的技艺和一丝不苟的态度完成,子嗣就能存活。所有围绕着他的碗中的血会飞在空气中,进入子嗣的嘴里,在黑暗能量的爆炸中和他们新的灵魂混合在一起。当他们醒来是便已经是巴力血系中的一员,他们的荣耀中充满了对神的亵渎。
这是个7级能力。据说Haqim从Ur-Shulgi的身上去除了诅咒。而且我实在搞不懂Du-An-Ki奇术的开创者为啥不能解除1个7级能力的效果。(同样还有是暗黑奇术祭礼的叛教仪式(Rite of Apostasy),和这个差不多,只不过能给你恶魔术(Daimonon))。

变节者(Apostates)让整件事变得更复杂了。

至今为止最有名和强大的巴力就是Azaneal,毫无疑问是个巴力。

但它还是个Lasombra。

译注:以后这种引用我只翻译加粗或重要部分... 太多全翻不太现实
QUOTE
黑天使(Angellis Ater)是支古怪的血系,介于巴力和Lasombra之间。They have the same weakness as other Lasombra – they do not cast reflections. The bloodline has been around since a least the Middle Ages, descended in part from a powerful Baali called Azaneal. (See also the Azaneali) This monstrous vampire acted as a leader within the Baali line for a time, and twisted the orthodoxy of some Kindred enough to create a kind of heresy, one that was all too attractive to the Lasombra. The Clan of Shadows' power base traditionally included the Catholic Church, and over time the Angellis Ater made at least some inroad with these pious (or pious-seeming) Lasombra. How much influence in the Church they were able to wield is not known, but they did survive the Inquisition. Angellis Ater are rare in modern nights, but they do exist. The so-called "black angels" believe that vampires are the instrument of Satan, and they worship sin and the darkness of the soul. Their Lasombra blood lets them reach into the blackness, pull it forth and manipulate it, and the black angels become dependent upon and addicted to use of the Obtenebration Discipline over time. The Angellis Ater have lacked organisation since their fall during the Dark Ages. After Namtaru's Tomb rampage when Azaneal almost killed all of them, they started to slowly decrease in number, until around fifty remained during the 20th century. In fact, when the Baali rose again, Angelis Ater started to work with the Inquisition again, searching for those infernalists and trying to eradicate them with their knowledge about Demons. In fact, an Angelis Ater can achieve Demonhood for many reasons, including eradicating cultists and other infernalists.

而且Cybele,一个被Nergal再次初拥并成为巴力的迈卡维,初拥的却是迈卡维Petaniqua(即使有时她的初拥诞生的是巴力)

巴力并不是一般意义上的氏族。

V20的血系轶闻(Lore of the Bloodlines)
QUOTE
The Baali eventually gained fellow infernalists among the rest of the Cainites. Azaneal was a powerful Baali who infiltrated the intricacies of the Catholic Church, eventually gaining the highest authority he could without becoming the pope himself. Along the way he corrupted and converted several with the Baali bloodline into his own heresy, believing that vampires were the tools of Satan against the world. It became his responsibility to play out his role until judgement day arrived, and he brought hundreds of Baali (called Azaneali) and Lasombra (called Angellis Ater) together under one banner.

这些半巴力,这些黑天使, manipulated the shadows, as obsessed with the idea of darkness and the abyss as they were with the infernal. When the Baali rose recently from their hiding (just as Moloch said they would), their first order was to absorb this group into the bloodline once more. It took a number of calculated strikes against the Inquisition to do so, but only a handful of anything but pure Baali exist now.

你看起来很困惑。哦,你在问我们是如何再次初拥其它血族的吗?呃,不像其它氏族,我们的血液流淌着原初子民的力量,使得我们能以自己那凌驾于其余血族脆弱的鲜血之上的血初拥。然而过程上是相同的;我们吸干他们的血,划破我们的手腕,用我们的血喂养他们的。我们的血覆写了他们的超自然成分,将其再次初拥为我们的血脉。据说低世代的巴力还拥有原处子民血肉的碎片,因而能喂食子嗣,从而让转变更快发生而无需血液交换。这就是其他血族害怕我们的真正原因。因为他们清楚,除了成为我们以外他们别无选择。

QUOTE
c)为什么Haqim知道他的子嗣之一是个巴力?
谁说他不知道?当Clayton Oliver设计Ur-Shulgi时他就决定了Haqim是知道的,而且故意这么设计的。

等等... 难不成你认为这是因为上古者们会关爱自己的血脉?或者会对自己的氏族关怀有加?

事实不是你想的那样。扫罗让萨洛比们死去。卡帕多西乌斯在愚蠢盛宴(Feast of Folly)上杀害了他绝大多数的子嗣,而且现代的幸存者,骸骨使者们都讨厌他。Tzimisce策划了那场摧毁了他氏族旧架构的叛乱。Absimiliard就是单纯地想除掉每个遇到的Nosferatu。Ravnos在他死时送出了能摧毁他氏族的死亡讯息。Lasombra很久以前就停止了初拥,并让格拉提亚诺除掉他氏族的长老们。

而当Haqim离开Assamite族时他真的对他们非常非常非常地失望,几乎就差对他们大吼你们这群饭桶有多蠢了。

QUOTE
d)他的异能就会有恶魔术,隐身术和威仪术。难道在氏族里带了8000多年的任何人都没有察觉到这些吗?Haqim还在他之前初拥了很多子嗣。
隐身术也是Assamite(译注:以下简称刺客,Ur-Shulgi简称Ur)的氏族异能,而且威仪术在维齐尔(Vizier)中很常见(而且对那个年龄的血族来说几乎是必备,即使是作为战士的Thetmes和Izhim也都有)。

而且恶魔术也不是巴力的招牌。

Dylan Bruce是个Ventrue,可他也有恶魔术。
Fransisca Santos Dos Rodriguez是个Lasombra,她也有(而且在第2版Valerius Maior也有)。

再者,恶魔术能通过吸榨甚至是单纯的学习获得——如同其它任何异能一样。暗黑奇术才可怕得多,那个只能通过和堕天使恶魔签订契约获得。

但... 你知道的,秘隐巨著第108页
QUOTE
那些研习暗黑奇术的血族心中根本毫无内疚。Assamite们喃喃自语着那个年代——那个当暗黑奇术只是他们之中最古老之人之一——一个名为Ur-Shulgi的,在深入探索了禁忌秘术的黑暗深渊后休眠的巨兽的专属的年代——尽管在如今的夜晚同样有越来越多的血族试图精通这门异能,以与各种所谓的恶魔交易,在力量的金字塔上站稳脚跟。
Common among the Baali, Tremere novices lacking a firm mentor, and the descendants of Assamites and Brujah present in Carthage, Dark Thaumaturgy is a forbidden fruit.
The power gained through its practice is swift, 但每一种奇术的道都有代价。为了学习任何一种暗黑奇术,血族需要和恶魔做交易。一些道需要你做不洁生物的宿主,另一些需要被恶魔奴役。甚至有些还需要献祭。其限制不在于某些特定的敌人,甚至是纯洁无辜的孩童——要获得这些力量需要杀掉血法师的爱人或信任的助手。
所以Ur知道恶魔术真的是最不是问题的问题。我们目前唯一能确定的是他至少和邪恶力量做了交易。

而且:巴力都是欺骗的大师,非常善于伪装成其它氏族的人。

Arishat伪装成Lasombra。Annazir在上千年里都被认为是个托瑞朵,Tanitbaal和Prospero则是Brujah。

在巴力氏族书甚至有1个2点的优点。

QUOTE
变节者
It is said that dead Shaitan himself forged the ranks of the first followers of Baal from those Cainites of the other lineages he could sway to his side. The practice continue to this day: a substantial minority of the bloodline are not Baali by Blood at all, but, rather stem from an adopted parentage - converts to the Baali banner. This unpredictably and versatility of talens has proven to be one of the infernalist's greatest strengths - but it does not always benefit those diverse talents within the bloodline.
Characters with this Merit either started their unlives as descendants of other blood, later converting to the Baali creed, or are of sufficiently close descent from one of such converts so as to maintain some link to her ancestral clan affinities. Apostates may replace either Obfuscate or Presence with any one Discipline, as appopriate to her ancestral clan. (Daimoinon is innate and cannot be replaced).变节者巴力依旧能相对轻松地规避其它氏族成员的注意。A determined effort will still root out an Apostate, but how many Cainites are willing to make that sort of effort

原文:
QUOTE
You are just forgetting that Baali's embrace doesn't work like the other clans.

QUOTE
Originally posted by Saga

I really can't understand te possibility of ur-Shulgi being the third Baali.

a) 2/3 of the sorcerer caste are his descendants, if he were Baali, how do all of them do darken their skin as time passes on (al-Ashrad being the exception)
b) He actually embraces al-Ashrad and he IS Assamite

Oh it wouldn't even be the first time. Baali embrace doesn't work like every other embrace.

Petaniqua, for example, is a Malkavian, for sure, but her childe...sometimes she embrace baali, and sometimes embraces strange malkavian.

V20 Red List

QUOTE
What makes Petaniqua particularly difficult to track, besides her many assumed names and strange way of speaking, is her childer. At this time, no one — not even the Tzimisce Sascha Vykos — has any idea how many vampires she’s created.To one childer, the Sabbat Inquisitor might be Cybele, a member of the Baali. To another, the vampire’s blood reflects she’s descended from a highly-specialized bloodline that’s been mixed with the Lupines who reportedly rescued her. Who knows what’ll happen when her childer learn the truth? Or if they’re compelled to help Petaniqua assassinate Malkavian Elders? Worse, what happens if Camilla Banes’s worst fear — that members of Petaniqua’s progeny are active in the Camarilla — comes to pass?

Even more, Baali is not always something you are born with the embrace, but also something you can become by choice.

QUOTE
••••• •• The Re-Embrace
While most Baali are Embraced in the traditional fashion, at other times, it is the choice of a vampire who wants to leave their blood-tied Clan for the Baali’s greener pastures.
The ritual of Re-Embracing is not a complicated one, but does require a willingness to endure a tortuous realignment of one’s soul, or whatever Kindred have left of one. When the Re-Embrace is invoked, the sire takes their would-be childe by the throat and bleeds them into four bowls inscribed with ancient and demonic runes. This is to remove that which dictates their current state of being, very similar to a normal Embrace. The sire then fills another four bowls with his own blood, surrounding the childe with them in alternating order. At the initiate lies on the ground, bleeding and reaching ever closer to their Final Death, the sire calls forth a soul fragment of the bloodlines’ most powerful demon, Namtaru, and combines it with the childe’s soul to corrupt it and draw their spirit closer to that of a Baali. This process can take hours to complete. If this part of the ritual is completed with finesse and meticulous attention, the childe may just make it out alive. All of the blood in the surrounding bowls flies into the air, entering the childe’s mouth, mixing and merging with their new soul in an explosion of dark energy. When they awake, they are now of the Baali bloodline, blasphemous in their glory.

This is a level 7 power. It is said that Haqim expunged the taint out of Ur-Shulgi body, and I don't see why the first master of Du An Ki could not undo something that could be done with a level 7 power. (There is also the Rite of Apostasy, which is Dark Thauma ritual, which made the same and gave you Daimonon).

The Apostates makes the whole thing much more complicated.

One of the most famous and powerful Baali ever was Azaneal, who was without doubt a Baali.
But he was also a Lasombra.

QUOTE
The Angellis Ater are an odd bloodline that crosses boundaries between Baali and Lasombra. They have the same weakness as other Lasombra – they do not cast reflections. The bloodline has been around since a least the Middle Ages, descended in part from a powerful Baali called Azaneal. (See also the Azaneali) This monstrous vampire acted as a leader within the Baali line for a time, and twisted the orthodoxy of some Kindred enough to create a kind of heresy, one that was all too attractive to the Lasombra. The Clan of Shadows' power base traditionally included the Catholic Church, and over time the Angellis Ater made at least some inroad with these pious (or pious-seeming) Lasombra. How much influence in the Church they were able to wield is not known, but they did survive the Inquisition. Angellis Ater are rare in modern nights, but they do exist. The so-called "black angels" believe that vampires are the instrument of Satan, and they worship sin and the darkness of the soul. Their Lasombra blood lets them reach into the blackness, pull it forth and manipulate it, and the black angels become dependent upon and addicted to use of the Obtenebration Discipline over time. The Angellis Ater have lacked organisation since their fall during the Dark Ages. After Namtaru's Tomb rampage when Azaneal almost killed all of them, they started to slowly decrease in number, until around fifty remained during the 20th century. In fact, when the Baali rose again, Angelis Ater started to work with the Inquisition again, searching for those infernalists and trying to eradicate them with their knowledge about Demons. In fact, an Angelis Ater can achieve Demonhood for many reasons, including eradicating cultists and other infernalists.

And Cybele, a Malkavian who was re-embraced by Nergal and become a Baali, generated Petaniqua, which is a Malkavian (even if sometimes the result of her embrace is a Baali)

Baali are not a Clan in the traditional term.

Lore of the Bloodlines
QUOTE
The Baali eventually gained fellow infernalists among the rest of the Cainites. Azaneal was a powerful Baali who infiltrated the intricacies of the Catholic Church, eventually gaining the highest authority he could without becoming the pope himself. Along the way he corrupted and converted several with the Baali bloodline into his own heresy, believing that vampires were the tools of Satan against the world. It became his responsibility to play out his role until judgement day arrived, and he brought hundreds of Baali (called Azaneali) and Lasombra (called Angellis Ater) together under one banner.

These half-Baali, these Angellis Ater, manipulated the shadows, as obsessed with the idea of darkness and the abyss as they were with the infernal. When the Baali rose recently from their hiding (just as Moloch said they would), their first order was to absorb this group into the bloodline once more. It took a number of calculated strikes against the Inquisition to do so, but only
a handful of anything but pure Baali exist now.

You seem confused. How do we re-Embrace other vampires, you ask? Well, unlike other Clans, our blood runs with the power of the First People, allowing us to Embrace with our own vitae which can override another’s weak blood. The process is the same, however; we drain the initiate of their blood, cut our wrists, and feed them our own. Our vitae rewrites their supernatural makeup, thus re-Embracing them into our bloodline. It is rumored that lower Generation Baali actually have pieces of the First People’s flesh they can feed to an initiate that causes the change instantly without the exchange of fluids. This is the real reason other vampires fear us. Because they know, with little more than a choice, they can be us.

QUOTE
c) How could Haqim NOT know that one of his childe is Baali?

Who said he didn't knew? When Clayon Oliver created the character he decided that Haqim knew, and made it on purpose.

Even more... since when did the Antes worked in a linear way, or had the best interest of their clan in their mind?

Saulot let the Salubri die. Cappadocius killed most of his children during the Feast of Folly, and the modern survivors hates him. Tzimisce plotted the revolt that destroyed the old structure of his Clan. Absimiliard wants just to erase every Nosferatu out there. Ravnos sent a death pulse that destroyed his clan when he died, and Lasombra stopped giving a shit aeons ago, and let Gratiano slaughter his elders.

And when Haqim left the Assamite he was really really really disappointed with them, almost throwing a rant on how stupid they were.

QUOTE
d) His disciplines are Daimonon, Obfuscate and Presence. Does ANYONE in the entire clan over 8000 years feel this? Haqim embraced lots of childer before him.
Obfuscate is a clan discipline, same for Presence which is common among Vizier (and almost mandatory for a kindred of that age, even Thetmes and Izhim who are warriors have presence).
and Daimonon is not the exclusive purview of the Baali.

Dylan Bruce is a Ventrue, and yet he has Daimonon.
Fransisca Santos Dos Rodriguez is a Lasombra, but she also has Daimonon (and in 2nd edition Valerius Maior also had it in his sheet).

Besides, Daimonon could be learnt through Diablerie or just through study, as every other discipline. It would be much worse if he for instance knew Dark Thaumaturgy, that can be learnt only through a pact with Demons.

But... you know... Tome of Secrets p 108

QUOTE
Those studying Dark Thaumaturgy suffer no suchcompunction. Assamites murmur of a time when Dark Thaumaturgy was the province only of one of their eldest — a great beast named Ur-Shulgi, who fell torpid after probing too deeply into the dark recesses of forbidden sorcery — though these nights an increasing number of vampires attempt manipulations of the Discipline, consorting with demons of all breeds to gain a foothold on the ladder to power.
Common among the Baali, Tremere novices lacking a firm mentor, and the descendants of Assamites and Brujah present in Carthage, Dark Thaumaturgy is a forbidden fruit.
The power gained through its practice is swift, yet each Path bears a price. To learn any aspect of Dark Thaumaturgy, the vampire requires consort with a demon. Some Paths require physical congress with an unholy creature, where others require enforced servitude to a fiend’s whims. Even worse are the Paths bearing the toll of sacrifice. Not limited to the sacrifice of a deserving foe, or even a pure and innocent child — these routes to power demand the murder of the blood magician’s loved ones and trusted associates.

So Ur-Shulgi knowing Daimonon would really be the least of the problems. We know for sure that at the very least he makes deal with the infernal powers.

Besides: Baali are masters of deception and are highly skilled in posing as other clans.

Arishat posed as a Lasombra, Annazir was believe a Toreador for more than a millenium, Tanitbaal and Prospero posed as Brujah

There is even a 2 point Merit in the Clanbook Baali.

QUOTE
Apostate

It is said that dead Shaitan himself forged the ranks of the first followers of Baal from those Cainites of the other lineages he could sway to his side. The practice continue to this day: a substantial minority of the bloodline are not Baali by Blood at all, but, rather stem from an adopted parentage - converts to the Baali banner. This unpredictably and versatility of talens has proven to be one of the infernalist's greatest strengths - but it does not always benefit those diverse talents within the bloodline.
Characters with this Merit either started their unlives as descendants of other blood, later converting to the Baali creed, or are of sufficiently close descent from one of such converts so as to maintain some link to her ancestral clan affinities. Apostates may replace either Obfuscate or Presence with any one Discipline, as appopriate to her ancestral clan. (Daimoinon is innate and cannot be replaced). Furthermore Apostate Baali can still pass with relative ease for members of other clans. A determined effort will still root out an Apostate, but how many Cainites are willing to make that sort of effort

This post has been edited by Lord Ex: 2020-02-24, 10:47
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Lord Ex
2020-02-23, 14:50
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第84楼:
QUOTE
Saga
And it took 1900 years of being Baali to find out that he IS A Baali? Not to say that all his lineage failed to acknowledge it too. Did no single divination marked the portent that the Amr is Baali? There dinivation ritual for the Amr's position was enacted every September 23 (vernal equinox) for 1878 years up to ur-Shulgi's awakening and no single Assamite got the portent that they were infiltrated?

If just one of such lineage was a religious muslim, by performing the Ashirra Hajj (which involves having someone else approach Mecca in the cainite's name, Veil of Night, pg. 48) such an act would stand out among standard Assamites, since the Baali weakness of vulnerability to faith would be even more troublesome. Through all the ritual Tarique did in Mecca, couldn't he find out about this?
阿拉穆特要塞和Ur的子嗣不需要成为巴力。巴力不是氏族而是个教派。如果Ur是个变节者或者随同行者(Fellow Traveler),那他的继承者就会有很好的机会腐化刺客氏族。

QUOTE
Let say, nothing of the above happened, ok. Did no Tremere ever happened to taste the blood of an "Assamite" and find out that he is not an Assamite and is something else, even though it don't know it? Wouldn't this became a better weapon in politics against the Assamites in general than their usual lust for blood (hell, they might even find a common enemy along with the Salubri!)?
一个有趣的事实:绝大多数Tremere并不能分清他们和巴力的血液的区别。

QUOTE
自从那次吸榨后,扫罗的血已经在Tremere血管中流淌了近千年。现在,几乎所有的Tremere都可上溯到他们的创立者,再然后上溯到扫罗自己。但只有非常精通奇术的Tremere才能发觉不同成员的细小差别,而即使是这也经常作为血幻术所引发的微小变化而被忽略掉– perhaps the vampire's sire was of House Bonisagus or Flambeaux. Reports of corruption deep within the Tremere hierarchy are scoffed at. Surely the Tremere, the masters of deception and manipulation, would know of a conspiracy within their ranks! But this conventional wisdom is wrong. With the immense occult resources of the Tremere, the Baali are gaining strength like never before. They have access to supplies, knowledge, and potential recruits. They have even started two secret orders within the clan: the Order of the Wyrm and the Illuminated Brotherhood.

QUOTE
Monçada has True Faith in 3, He was embraced in 1153 and held court while his sire, Silvestre de Ruiz, was Monarch of Iberia. Did no Assamite, while a lot of them were in al-Andalus, ever came across his court and find himself unusually repelled more than usual?
真实信仰已经能驱逐单纯的血族了。而且就像上头Philips所说的,直到现代夜晚人们甚至不知道术士和维齐尔支系的存在。

BJD
QUOTE
The Diaspora: While the Camarilla dithers, Assamite refugees stream into its domains. While many domains refuse to accept known Assamites, others are more openminded, particularly when the refugees can help defend domains against the Sabbat and other threats.其它刺客更加隐秘,他们伪装成贱民或其它氏族的成员。很少有其它西方血族知道维齐尔和术士血脉的存在,而维齐尔能轻而易举地伪装成托瑞朵。
刺客氏族非常隐秘。即使是贝克特这样学识非常渊博的血族也不知道刺客氏族是如何运作的。他知道刺客内部存在血系,但也就止步于此了。
QUOTE
Tegyrius thanked me for my help and introduced himself as the Vizier of Clan Assamite. 我知道一个叫做维齐尔地刺客血系,所以我不理解他为何要假装成唯一一个维齐尔。事实证明这个血系的首领被称为维齐尔,这似乎有点奇特,但大概阿拉伯语有微妙的区别,而我的英式双耳无法听出区别。

绝大多数血族甚至知道刺客对鲜血的渴望来自巴力。
再次提醒,贝克特是现存的最厉害的诺德学者和学识最渊博的长老。
QUOTE
Afterwards, the conservatives of the Warrior Caste, who outnumbered the other two castes combined and also had all the spiffy combat experience, seized control of the Clan, which is why, 在近千年的绝大多数时候,不那么博学的血族都会认为所有的刺客都是嗜血的热衷吸榨的战士。实际上通过Tegyrius和Fatima的说辞,即使那种特征也是相当近期才有的。The blood addiction plaguing Assamites in the Middle Ages (which still plagues antitribu today) was the result of a curse levied against the Warrior Caste by the Baali sometime in the 5thor 6th century. According to Tegyrius, anyway. Frankly, I think the Baali are too often cast as the mysterious boogiemen responsible for all the bad things
QUOTE
I’m sorry. I’m lost. 谁是牧者?刀网(Web of Knives)是什么?I’ve always thought it just a nickname for Warriors of your Clan. Yet now, it seems that it is only a subgroup plotting against the rest of you.
然而贝克特不知道任何事,他不知道巴力诅咒了刺客,不知道谁是Ur,不知道刺客有维齐尔支系,不知道刀网为何物。

QUOTE
Did no Assamite within the Sabbat ever find out about this? The Black Hand and the Sabbat Inquisition would have a ridiculously huge advantage if they did.
你指的是由那个将他的灵魂卖给了Namtaru(幽暗纪元小说剧情)的Izhim Ur Bhaal所带领的刺客吗?或者是被黑手(而且Molochim是他们之中最主要的血系之一)号令天使之一的Djuah所带领的那些?

QUOTE
Wouldn't Abdalkutba of the Inconnu figured it out through his blood magic and ties with demon Nikanuuranu (therefore, all Inconnu know about the Assamite/Baali)?
Abdalkutba 没有血魔法;他最强的能力是感应术7。然而Ur有隐身术9和血魔法9,所以任何占卜他都能反制掉。
Marcus Vitel 只用了隐身术6和一些小魔法就隐藏了他的血脉,而这足以向整个密盟隐瞒他的出身。
最后:为何Nikanuuranu要说明?他甚至没告诉遁世会的十二位座扫罗就在城堡里,或者该告诉他们Ur和邪恶力量结盟,或者他是哪个氏族的???

QUOTE
Saga

Those who were around knew the difference. I bet that the Cainites in Iberia learned about the difference in time and Hardestadt the elder had a castle there (since Tyler diablerized him there). To consider that the Camarilla learn of the Assamite castes as recently as 2016 it would not be accurate.
他至今遇到了多少刺客术士?他们都住在阿拉穆特,而维齐尔几乎从不离开中东

QUOTE
a) The Tremere cursed the Assamite, wouldn't they know their enemy caste differences?
那他们应该披露还有其他血魔法的大师吗?

QUOTE
b) The Camarilla had contracts with several Assamites as assassins. Many of those who did, predate the Camarilla:
- Francois Villon (5th generation, Toreador, Paris)
- Dame Mnemach (Nosferatu, Paris)
- Hamad al-Badajozi (8th generation Nosferatu, Paris)
- Karl Schrekt (6th generation, Tremere, Linz, Austria)
- Lotharius (5th generation, Tremere)
- Josef von Bauren (6th generation, Nosferatu, Munich)
- Guillaume (5th generation, Brujah, Geneva)
- Hauzal (5th generation, Nosferatu, Madrid)
- Ramessu (4th generation, Ravnos, Alexandria)

and the list goes on, wouldn't ANY of them know that Assamite are separate in castes?
为啥?他们联系的是战士,不是维齐尔或术士。
而且战士的身份通常很隐秘,刺客氏族书甚至有边栏提到过。
So How Many Assassins Are There,
Anyway?

QUOTE
The number of warrior-caste Assamites who actually worked as contract assassins prior to the
Schism (see Chapter Two) is indeterminate. Of these, perhaps half are warriors, and only half of those are actual combat specialists of one type or another. The numbers dwindle further when one considers
how many of those actual warriors are not assassins, either by skill or temperament. 当一切准备妥当时,可能会有一些将全职刺客作为工作的阿刹迈优先开始破坏(Breaking)和分裂(Schism),还可能会有两倍于这个数目的刺客偶尔寻求其它工作来满足其它需求。 However, the Ventrue records maintained by the Inner Council on unsanctioned Camarilla contracting list over 2000 names of Assamites hired for assassination since the Treaty of Tyre. Either the estimates are frightfully incorrect, or the Assamites often used alternate identities to confuse their benefactors, or other parties claiming to be Assamites executed some of those contracts
内环甚至在绝大多数时候都不清楚他们雇佣的刺客是谁。

原文:
QUOTE
QUOTE
QUOTE
Originally posted by Saga

And it took 1900 years of being Baali to find out that he IS A Baali? Not to say that all his lineage failed to acknowledge it too. Did no single divination marked the portent that the Amr is Baali? There dinivation ritual for the Amr's position was enacted every September 23 (vernal equinox) for 1878 years up to ur-Shulgi's awakening and no single Assamite got the portent that they were infiltrated?

If just one of such lineage was a religious muslim, by performing the Ashirra Hajj (which involves having someone else approach Mecca in the cainite's name, Veil of Night, pg. 48) such an act would stand out among standard Assamites, since the Baali weakness of vulnerability to faith would be even more troublesome. Through all the ritual Tarique did in Mecca, couldn't he find out about this?
There is no need for the Amr and the descendant of Ur-Shulgi to be Baali. Baali are not a Clan, their are a Cult, If Ur-Shulgi is an apostate or a Fellow Traveler there are good chances his heirs will just turn out Assamite.

QUOTE
Let say, nothing of the above happened, ok. Did no Tremere ever happened to taste the blood of an "Assamite" and find out that he is not an Assamite and is something else, even though it don't know it? Wouldn't this became a better weapon in politics against the Assamites in general than their usual lust for blood (hell, they might even find a common enemy along with the Salubri!)?
Fun fact: most Tremeres can't tell the difference between their blood and the Baali's
QUOTE
The blood of Saulot runs through Tremere's veins since his diablerie close to a thousand years ago. Now, almost all Tremere are descended from their founder, and therefore from Saulot himself. Only those with a high proficiency in Thaumaturgy can detect even a slight difference and even then it is usually dismissed as a minor change in blood chemistry – perhaps the vampire's sire was of House Bonisagus or Flambeaux. Reports of corruption deep within the Tremere hierarchy are scoffed at. Surely the Tremere, the masters of deception and manipulation, would know of a conspiracy within their ranks! But this conventional wisdom is wrong. With the immense occult resources of the Tremere, the Baali are gaining strength like never before. They have access to supplies, knowledge, and potential recruits. They have even started two secret orders within the clan: the Order of the Wyrm and the Illuminated Brotherhood.

QUOTE
Monçada has True Faith in 3, He was embraced in 1153 and held court while his sire, Silvestre de Ruiz, was Monarch of Iberia. Did no Assamite, while a lot of them were in al-Andalus, ever came across his court and find himself unusually repelled more than usual?
True Faith already repels vampires. And besides as Philips said until modern night people didn't even know that Vizier and Sorcerers were a thing.

BJD
QUOTE
The Diaspora: While the Camarilla dithers, Assamite refugees stream into its domains. While many domains refuse to accept known Assamites, others are more openminded, particularly when the refugees can help defend domains against the Sabbat and other threats. Other Assamites are subtler, posing as Caitiff or as members of other Clans. Few western Kindred know anything at all about the Vizier and Sorcerer bloodlines, and the Viziers can easily pass as Toreador.
The Assamite are very secretive. Even Beckett, who is quite the educated kindred, doesn't know how the Assamite clan works. He knows that there are Bloodlines, but his knowledge stops here.
QUOTE
Tegyrius thanked me for my help and introduced himself as the Vizier of Clan Assamite. I was aware of a separate Assamite bloodline called Viziers, so I didn’t understand why he was pretending to be the only one. It turns out that the leader of the Vizier bloodline is called the Vizier, which seems impractical, but perhaps there’s a subtle distinction in Arabic that eludes my British ears.
QUOTE
Most Kindred do not even know that the Assamite craving for Blood came from the Baali.
Again, Beckett, one of the foremost noddist and educated elders around.
Afterwards, the conservatives of the Warrior Caste, who outnumbered the other two castes combined and also had all the spiffy combat experience, seized control of the
Clan, which is why, for most of the last millennium, less erudite Kindred assumed all Assamites were bloodthirsty warriors obsessed with diablerie. Indeed, according toTegyrius and Fatima, even that was a fairly recent development. The blood addiction plaguing Assamites in the Middle Ages (which still plagues antitribu today) was the result of a curse levied against the Warrior Caste by the Baali sometime in the 5thor 6th century. According to Tegyrius, anyway. Frankly, I think the Baali are too often cast as the mysterious boogiemen responsible for all the bad things
QUOTE
I’m sorry. I’m lost. Who’s the Shepherd? And what’s this Web of Knives? I’ve always thought it just a nickname for Warriors of your Clan. Yet now, it seems that it is only a subgroup plotting against the rest of you.
Nothing, he is Beckett, and he doesn't know that the Baali cursed the Assamite, he doesn't know who Ur-Shulgi is and he doesn't know that the Assamite have a Vizier and doesn't know what the Web is.

QUOTE
Did no Assamite within the Sabbat ever find out about this? The Black Hand and the Sabbat Inquisition would have a ridiculously huge advantage if they did.
You mean the Assamites lead by Izhim Ur Bhaal who sold his soul to Namtaru (Dark Age novels) or the ones lead by Djuha who is one of the chief of the Tal'Mahe'ra (and the Molochim are one of the main bloodlines among them) ?

QUOTE
Wouldn't Abdalkutba of the Inconnu figured it out through his blood magic and ties with demon Nikanuuranu (therefore, all Inconnu know about the Assamite/Baali)?
Abdalkutba doesn't have Blood magic; the best he could use is Auspex 7. And remember that Ur-Shulgi has Obfuscate 9 and Blood Magic 9, so any divination people throws, he can counter.
Marcus Vitel used just a Obfuscate 6 power and a couple of magical clasp to mistically cloack his lineage, and it was enought to cheat the whole Camarilla about his origins.
And lastly: why should Nikanuuranu tell anything about it? He didn't even told them that Saulot is in the castle, and he should tell them Ur-Shulgi is allied with the infernal powers, of whom he is a member?

QUOTE
Originally posted by Saga

Those who were around knew the difference. I bet that the Cainites in Iberia learned about the difference in time and Hardestadt the elder had a castle there (since Tyler diablerized him there). To consider that the Camarilla learn of the Assamite castes as recently as 2016 it would not be accurate.
And how many sorcerors he would have met? They live in Alamut, and the Vizier almost never leave the Middle East

QUOTE
a) The Tremere cursed the Assamite, wouldn't they know their enemy caste differences?
And why the should divulge that there are other masters of blood magic?

QUOTE
b) The Camarilla had contracts with several Assamites as assassins. Many of those who did, predate the Camarilla:
- Francois Villon (5th generation, Toreador, Paris)
- Dame Mnemach (Nosferatu, Paris)
- Hamad al-Badajozi (8th generation Nosferatu, Paris)
- Karl Schrekt (6th generation, Tremere, Linz, Austria)
- Lotharius (5th generation, Tremere)
- Josef von Bauren (6th generation, Nosferatu, Munich)
- Guillaume (5th generation, Brujah, Geneva)
- Hauzal (5th generation, Nosferatu, Madrid)
- Ramessu (4th generation, Ravnos, Alexandria)

and the list goes on, wouldn't ANY of them know that Assamite are separate in castes?
And why? They contacted the warriors, not the Viziers or the Sorcerors.
Even more, the warriors identity as always been murky, there is even a side-box in the Assamite clanbook about it.
QUOTE
So How Many Assassins Are There,
Anyway?

The number of warrior-caste Assamites who actually worked as contract assassins prior to the
Schism (see Chapter Two) is indeterminate. Of these, perhaps half are warriors, and only half of those are actual combat specialists of one type or another. The numbers dwindle further when one considers
how many of those actual warriors are not assassins, either by skill or temperament. When
all is said and done, perhaps a few score Assamites worked as fulltime assassins immediately prior to
the Breaking and the Schism, and maybe twice that number apocryphally sought occasional employment to supplement their other pursuits. However, the Ventrue records maintained by the Inner Council on unsanctioned Camarilla contracting list over 2000 names of Assamites hired for assassination since the Treaty of Tyre. Either the estimates are frightfully incorrect, or the Assamites often used alternate identities to confuse their benefactors, or other parties claiming to be Assamites executed some of those contracts
The Inner Council doesn't even know who they hired most of the times.

This post has been edited by Lord Ex: 2020-02-24, 10:48
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Lord Ex
2020-02-23, 14:51
Post #9


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第85楼:
刺客氏族书
QUOTE
直到20世纪末期,刺客氏族对血族世界来说依旧是个极大的谜团,充满着危险和威胁。
然而,最近的一些事件已经稍微揭示了这个氏族那不为人知的一些东西——而这在过去被认为是几乎不可能的。尽管氏族的合同刺客等依旧强大,但他们却远不是唯一的刺客支系。这一氏族有着独特的三重柱支系,而在近千年来几乎没有外部的血族知晓。
This odd “family tree” has its roots in the Second City and has remained relatively stable into the modern nights
QUOTE
战士
千年以来,战士支系就是刺客氏族——至少对外部的血族世界来说是这样。This unchallenged supremacy led the warriors to political ascendance within the clan. Their actions controlled the manner in which members of other clanstreated Assamites, and their role as defenders of the clan gave them great leverage in determining how members ofthe other castes interacted with the rest of the world. In time, the warriors came to view themselves as the onlytrue Children of Haqim, and thus his only real heirs.
QUOTE
术士
Tremere很早就知晓他们的存在,但除此以外的现代血族直到终末之夜都认为刺客氏族的血法师是难以想象的。This unchallenged supremacy led the warriors to political ascendance within the clan. Their actions controlled the manner in which members of other clanstreated Assamites, and their role as defenders of the clan gave them great leverage in determining how members ofthe other castes interacted with the rest of the world. In time, the warriors came to view themselves as the onlytrue Children of Haqim, and thus his only real heirs.
QUOTE
维齐尔
在终末之夜之前,几乎没有现代血族能猜到刺客氏族的一部分会追求平和之道。
Yet the vast majority of the vizier caste is, if not pacifistic, then at least inclinedtoward studies other than combat.
QUOTE
The Web never acknowledges its existence outside Assamite ranks. 实际上,这个名字只有一些密盟和遁世会的情报搜集者知晓,而他们很多都认为这是一个由刺客氏族所资助的恐怖组织。然而,刀网的声誉是如此之高,以至于其成员的活动和起源几乎被认为是整个氏族的,尽管这种刻板印象在终末之夜转变了。The phrase “Web of Knives” is largely unknown, but its individual members’ deeds tend to attain an infamy out of proportion to their actual significance, and these accomplishments are the most visible contributions of any Assamite to the Cainite world as a whole.
人们不仅是不知道,那些知道的也绝不会透露半个字。

原文:
QUOTE
Clanbook Assamite

QUOTE
Until the last nights of the 20th century, the Assamites were an impenetrable mystery to the rest of the Cainite world, all sharp steel and thinly veiled threats.
Recent events, however, have brought to light aspects of the clan that few had previously considered possible, let alone likely. While the clan’s contract assassins and their ilk are no less formidable, they are far from being the only Assamites. The clan has a unique tripartite structure that few outsiders have knowingly glimpsed in the past millennium. This odd “family tree” has its roots in the Second City and has remained relatively stable into the modern nights

QUOTE
Warriors
For a thousand years and more, the warrior caste was the Assamite clan, at least to the rest of the Cainite world. This unchallenged supremacy led the warriors to political ascendance within the clan. Their actions controlled the manner in which members of other clanstreated Assamites, and their role as defenders of the clan gave them great leverage in determining how members ofthe other castes interacted with the rest of the world. In time, the warriors came to view themselves as the onlytrue Children of Haqim, and thus his only real heirs.
QUOTE
Sorcerers
Their existence has long been known to the Tremere,but the rest of the modern Cainite world considered the notion of Assamite blood magicians unthinkable until recent nights. The sorcerers greet this notion with no small degree of ironic amusement, as their own records state that they are the eldest organized blood magicians of any clan.
QUOTE
Viziers
Prior to the Final Nights, few modern Cainites would have guessed that a portion of the Assamite clan could be devoted to peaceful pursuits. Yet the vast majority of the vizier caste is, if not pacifistic, then at least inclinedtoward studies other than combat.
QUOTE
The Web never acknowledges its existence outside Assamite ranks. In fact, the name is only known to a few Camarilla and Inconnu intelligence-gatherers, most of whom believe it to be a mortal terrorist organization that the Assamites support. However, the Web’s reputation is such that the activities and origins of its members are generally perceived as those of the entire clan, though this stereotype is shifting in the Final Nights. The phrase “Web of Knives” is largely unknown, but its individual members’ deeds tend to attain an infamy out of proportion to their actual significance, and these accomplishments are the most visible contributions of any Assamite to the Cainite world as a whole.
People simply didn't knew, and those who knew made sure not to divulge anything.

This post has been edited by Lord Ex: 2020-02-24, 10:49
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Lord Ex
2020-02-23, 14:52
Post #10


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第87楼:
QUOTE
Saga
That goes against the basis of embrace (of which you belong to your clans sire or you are Caitiff)
对,是这样。然后?一直都是如此啊:巴力不是个单纯的氏族。他们能再次初拥,而且自从1998年的氏族书开始就是如此。
这是黑暗世界的常见主题。类似于当狼人螺旋起舞成为黑旋舞者,或者当法师进入邪茧成为灭世者。

QUOTE
You are still only quoting only V20 and ignoring 104 (aprox) books from the Vampire the Masquerade line 45 books of Dark Ages line, 3 of Kindred of the East, and 37 from the fiction line.
谁在乎呀?相关的拓展有时是重设,有时是覆写之前的旧拓展。
而且,我也引用了第3版的氏族书——这是第3版资料,而这本书令我们彻底改变了对刺客的认知。
作为官设,其它人直到现代夜晚才了解其它支系。而新设覆盖旧设。这就是官方资料的运作方式。

QUOTE
Considering that Beckett was embrace in the late 15th century, he ignores a lot. Even him knowing of the truth of Hardestadt the elder's death in Gehenna: The Final Night and finally will be retconned to him ignoring that fact.
那么请列出比贝克特更有学识的血族,知道刺客存在支系的。

QUOTE
Perhaps it is not widely known, but ALL the clans united against them around 2000 BC against Shaitan in Knossos, and that's a lot of combined knowledge.
对,这广为人知。但是有多少亲历者还在世呢?

QUOTE
In which novel did this happened? The only probably one is in "The Cainite Conspiracies" which I still haven't read. Yet that's one against 47 already published...
对头就是那本书,而且对的,这就是官设的运作方式。现在的正史指出Izhim在Chorazin向Namtaru宣誓效忠,并将他的子嗣献祭给了黑暗之神。

而且你也知道这不是什么新鲜事了。在第3版时他通过带领Tremere进入Chorazin的深洞里,并杀死了跟着他们进入要塞的术士来打破他们施加给刺客叛党的诅咒。
你觉得他们在Bara-dur,Namtaru沉睡的地方,decani规则的Azaneal所在之地里是想干什么呢?开派对吗?
Izhim和巴力的联系的证据能追溯到第3版。V20只不过是明着指出来了而已。

QUOTE
Of course he doesn't, yet he can continuously cast the stars of the Twelve.
耶,用感应术6的力量。猜下:Ur有隐身术9而你能像Marcus Vitel一样用隐身术6隐藏你的血脉。而且用披风斗篷这个7级的能力,你就能避免感应术找到你。

QUOTE
Nikaruuranu wanted release, of course he didn't tell the Twelve that Saulot is in the Castle, that was his triumph card to actually be released.
哪里暗示它知道Ur了?或者它有知道的力量吗?即使它知道,为何他要冒着激怒巴力的盟友恶魔5大公的风险揭示它?

QUOTE
If ur-Shulgi was Baali, that means that:

- Anath
- Sha'hiri
- Nakurtum
- "The Weeping Master"
- Abu'Ilaf

all childer of Haqim failed to notice.

- Izhim ur-Baal
- Nabonidus
- Dastur Anosh
- Tegyrius
- Azif
- Thetmes
- 'Adnun
- Pelagon
- Wasim

all grandchilder of Haqim failed to notice too.

It's just a Zack Snyder's BvS Dawn of Justice sized plot hole.
对,就像罗马的血族参议院没注意到Tanitbaal是个巴力。或者密盟的内环没注意到Marcus Vitel是个Lasombra。或者就像黑手的所有成员都没有注意到Izhim,Djuah和伊利米勒实际上是真手的成员,或者没有蒙特利尔的血族知道Sangris依旧或者,或魔宴组织结膜(Concistorum)没有注意到Nergal就沉睡在墨西哥城下并操控着那儿的摄政,或者绝大多数在迦太基的Brujah都没有注意到巴力卧底。

一些血族就是非常善于在大众眼底下隐藏自己。我真的没领会到你的重点。Molochim的整个文化就是围绕着隐秘和伪装成其它氏族成员的。

我的意思是小哈德施塔特伪装成了他的尊长——中世纪欧洲最著名的血族统治者,而且没被注意到;我们还有Byzar,他行走在拜占庭的街道上达数千年却没有任何人发问他是谁。我们有Tyler,她成为了世界上最大的城市之一的首席。Sarrasine是澳洲最强大的亲王之一而没人知道他是个赛特。Menele和海伦好几年都没注意到Khalid。遁世会的十二位座使尽全力也没注意到扫罗就在他们的城堡里。

然后难道我们还不能相信一个无比强大的,创造了一整个以在大众视线下隐藏自己为主要文化的血脉的玛士撒拉,不能够欺骗他弱小的同胞吗?

原文:
QUOTE
QUOTE
Originally posted by Saga

That goes against the basis of embrace (of which you belong to your clans sire or you are Caitiff)
Yeah, it does, so what? It has always been so: Baali are not a simple clan. They can re-embrace, and it is so since Clanbook Baali, 1998.
It's a common theme in the World of Darkness, it's the same that happens when werewolfes walks the Spirals and become Black Spiral Dancers, or when a Mage descend in the Cauls and becomes a Nephandus.

QUOTE
You are still only quoting only V20 and ignoring 104 (aprox) books from the Vampire the Masquerade line 45 books of Dark Ages line, 3 of Kindred of the East, and 37 from the fiction line.
And who cares? Successive lore either retcons either suppress what came before.
Besides, I quoted also Assamite Revised, which is Revised Edtion, and it changed everything we know about the Assamite.
As of Canon, people didn't knew about the other Castes until the modern nighs.
And whatever was written before about this is superseded by what came later. That's how canonicity works.

QUOTE
Considering that Beckett was embrace in the late 15th century, he ignores a lot. Even him knowing of the truth of Hardestadt the elder's death in Gehenna: The Final Night and finally will be retconned to him ignoring that fact.
Then please provide sources of Vampires more educated than beckett, knowing that the Assamite had Castes.

QUOTE
Perhaps it is not widely known, but ALL the clans united against them around 2000 BC against Shaitan in Knossos, and that's a lot of combined knowledge.
Yeah, it is widely known, and how many of those who were there are still alive today to tell? Mithras who was not even born? Montano, embraced after the eruption of Thera? The Salubri, who have been extinguished?

QUOTE
In which novel did this happened? The only probably one is in "The Cainite Conspiracies" which I still haven't read. Yet that's one against 47 already published...
Yeah that's the book, and yeah again, that's how canon works. As of modern Canon Izhim pledged loyalty to Namtaru in Chorazin and sacrificed his childe to the dark God.

Not that It Is something new you know. It's since revised that Izhim broke the Tremere curse on the antitribu by leading them in the bowels of Chorazin and killing the sorcerers who followed them inside the fortress.
What did you thought they did inside Bara-dur, where Namtaru sleeps, and where Azaneal of the decani rules? Throwed a party?
Izhim connection to the baali goes back since revised. V20 Just said It out of loud.

QUOTE
Of course he doesn't, yet he can continuously cast the stars of the Twelve.
Yeah, with an Auspex 6 power. Guess what: Ur-Shulgi has Obfuscate 9 and you can cloack your lineage mystically with Obfuscate 6 like Marcus Vitel did. And with Cloak, level 7 power, you can Hide from auspex powers looking for you.

QUOTE
Nikaruuranu wanted release, of course he didn't tell the Twelve that Saulot is in the Castle, that was his triumph card to actually be released.
And where is suggested that he knows about Ur-Shulgi? Or that he has the powers to know? And even if he knew, why would he risk the fury of the Five Archdukes of hell, who are allied with the Baali?

QUOTE
If ur-Shulgi was Baali, that means that:

- Anath
- Sha'hiri
- Nakurtum
- "The Weeping Master"
- Abu'Ilaf

all childer of Haqim failed to notice.

- Izhim ur-Baal
- Nabonidus
- Dastur Anosh
- Tegyrius
- Azif
- Thetmes
- 'Adnun
- Pelagon
- Wasim

all grandchilder of Haqim failed to notice too.

It's just a Zack Snyder's BvS Dawn of Justice sized plot hole.
Yeah, like the vampiric senate of Rome failed to notice that Tanitbaal was a Baali. Or like the Camarilla Inner Circle failed to notice that Marcus Vitel was a Lasombra. Or like every member of the Black Hand failed to notice that Izhim, Djuah and Elimelech were members of the True Hand, or like no vampire in Montreal understanding that Sangris was still alive, or like the Concistorum of the Sabbat failing to notice that Nergal is sleeping under Mexico City and manipulating the Regent ,or like most Brujah in Carthage failed to see the Baali among them.

Some vampires are really good at hiding in plain view. I really don't see the point. The whole culture of the Molochim revolves around being subtle and posing as other Clans.

I mean we have Hardestadt the younger posing as his sire, one of the most famous rulers of medieval Europe, without anyone noticing; we have Byzar walking the streets of Byzantium for millennia without anyone taking a hint about who he Is. We have Tyler being the Primogen in one of the biggest city of the world. Sarrasine Is one of the most powerful prince of Australia and no One knows he Is a setite. Menele and Helena didn't noticed Khalid for years. The twelve in all their might couldn't noticed Saulot the almighty janitor.

And we can't believe that an omni-powerful Metuselah, who hail from a bloodline whose culture Is built around hiding in plain view was able to foul his weaker clan mates?

This post has been edited by Lord Ex: 2020-02-24, 10:49
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Lord Ex
2020-02-23, 14:53
Post #11


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第91楼:
QUOTE
Saga

No. you choose what's convenient to your argument. Canonicity doesn't work like that.
好。请证明再次初拥和巴力是教派不是正史。
你怎么证明是你的事。我只是引用官方资料来证明,从这些概念创立时(巴力氏族书,1998年)到最新的资料(血系轶闻,2017年),这些概念依旧成立。
现在请你证明这两本都不是官设。

译注:下面的抬杠... 貌似和主题关系不大,有需求的我下面帖原文吧...

QUOTE
There's a very BIG difference between Baali and infernalism. Tanitbaal codified the variation of Road of Sin (pleasure) at Camilla's (who was Prince) choice.
没有那么大,巴力都是崇魔者,不同的只是目的。Moloch子嗣崇魔来让其安稳沉睡,Nergal子嗣崇魔来摧毁世界。
Besides, that's a strawman, I didn't said anything about the Road of Sin. I said that the vampiric population of Rome didn't noticed that Tanit was a Baali.(译注:没关系,不翻译

QUOTE
And please, don't quote me Chaos Factor as a reference on Nergal..., please.
我没有,我会引用BJD。
但我怀疑你根本没读过,就像你已经错误引用了很多资料一样。

BJD,第151页,主题思想依旧不变。
QUOTE
Beckett:
On the subject of the High Inquisitor’s delusions, Nergal, if not a complete myth, was a Methuselah thought to be the progenitor of the Baali bloodline (or one of the progenitors — their creation myths are strange even by my standards). I’m told one of Sister Maria’s hobbyhorses for the past few decades has been legends about Nergal, whom she believes to be the same entity that once posed as Huitzilopochtli and who fought the Black Hand in the time of Cortez.
Add that to your list of absurdly improbable suspects in this surreal political thriller you’ve wandered into.
Sincerely
Anatole

160页
QUOTE
Upon meeting Sandoza, both Kindred are startled when the legendarily ruthless High Inquisitor wel*comes Lucita as a long-lost and beloved older sister, and even more so when Sandoza recognizes Lucita as Regent. 她也表示出她个人对组织所面临的问题的态度——她指责以巴力之名而闻名的无比神秘的崇魔血族血脉的一切,而对于它的领导者Nergal,她相信就沉睡在墨西哥城的某处。In essence, this is a second front in the Gehenna Crusade, one that the Sabbat Inquisition considers to be much more important than the war far away in the east.

原文:
QUOTE
QUOTE
Originally posted by Saga

No. you choose what's convenient to your argument. Canonicity doesn't work like that.
Ok, prove that the Re-Embracing and theBaali being a cult is not Canon.
It's up to you prove that it is not like this. I quoted only canon sources that show that since the creation of the concept (Clanbook Bali 1998) to the latest interactions (Lore of the Bloodlines, 2017) the concept stands.

Now it's up to you proving that Clanbook Bali and Lore of the Bloodlines are not canon.

QUOTE
Really...?

Ok.

Eshmunamash
Critias
Altamira
Guillaume
Yzebel
Mezekht
Lucius Cornelius Scipio
Nehemiah
Yitzhak Reuben
Patricia of Bollingbroke
Albertus Magnus
Khentik-Khert
Pard
"The Slumbering Giant"
Hukros
Shabaqo the Nubian
Marcus Sextus
Jalan Aajav/Karsh
Bodhmall
Opoin
Rufus
Nissiku
Lerterimas
Lamdiel
Abd ar-Rahman
The Dionysian
Necross
Tryphosa
Unmada
Jacob / Esau
Addemar
Demetrius of Antioch
Aristotle de Laurent
Yima
"the Matriarch"
"Vasilisa"
Angiwar
Alexius
Cristo
Kothar
Callisti & Callisto
Calida
Enimachia / Salianna
Goratrix
Ingvar / Etrius
Molle / Meerlinda
LeDuc
Calderon
Balthazar
Lantla / Drakonskyr
"Mithras"
Nefer-meri-Isis

and those are only the Camarilla clans
LOL, now you are just throwing names of Methuselahs.
But it's ok, I have every book, let's start a check.

My request was
QUOTE
Then please provide sources of Vampires more educated than beckett, knowing that the Assamite had Castes.
Lantla
Vassilissa
Altamira
Angiwar
Rufus
and Unmada

Did they knew about the Assamite Castes? Where it is said?

Or maybe you want to tell me in which page of Dark Alliance it is said that the Slumbering Giant knows about the Assamite Castes, that still had to be invented at the time?

EDIT.

*Now, maybe you tought that request was just "more educated than beckett", and that "knowing" was refered to Beckett.
But It would be the same, since there are no sources that says that Cristo, Alexius, Pard, Bodhmall and many others of that list are more educated than Beckett.

What do we know about Alexius and Cristo, aside from whom they sired? And Lerterimas? And where in hell is hinted that Marcus Sextus was more educated than Beckett?
Seriously, what do we know about Cristo aside that in 1348 he embraced Petrodon? Where in hell'sake has been Cristo been talke about that it wasn't in Anarch's Cockbook page 85?

Jalan-Ajav doesn't even have academics.
Tyler has Intelligence 4, Academics 1, Occult 0.
Rufus, if you mean the Lasombra Methuselah, had Intelligence 4, occult 2, accademics 0.

Besides being old doesn't mean being "educated". There are reasons if Aisling Sturbridge, who is less than 100 years old is more educated than Byzar (who is more than 2000 years old)or more intelligent than Dastur Anosh.
Simply because Beckett is younger it doesn't mean he knows less. By canon Beckett is one of the greatest noddist alive and one of the greatest expert of kindred archaelogy and occult.

Aisling Sturbridge with her mere 100 years is far more knowledgeable and intelligent than members of the Inner Circle of the Inconnu like Mathiel,Bufo, Zamra or Anastazi.

In any case, I still don't know if you meant people more educated than beckett, or people who knew about the Castes, but In both case still It looks like you are throwing names around hoping to hit something.

QUOTE
"Eruption of Thera?" Source please?

He is older than Mithras, and probably older than Kemintiri.

[LS1-MotS, pg. 15] [DA: V, pg. 57] [DA: E, pg. 58] [CotI, pg. 47] [Cb-L, pg. 65] [GttC, pg. 58] [Cb-LR, pg. 19] [LT2-S, pg. 10] [LT3-S, pg. 64] [EV, pg. 115] combine all this sources and you'll figure it out.
Montano has been embrace after the erruption of Thera.

Clanbook Lasombra Revised, page 20.

QUOTE
The First Dispersal

In 1627 B.C., the volcanic island of Thera erupted.
Foolish scholars try to link it with everything from the
Exodus to Atlantis, when it was simply what it was — a
tremendous eruption, spewing ash and dust around the
world. The sea recovered quickly enough, but many
coastal havens suffered. In the wake of the eruption,
something like a third of our clan chose to seek better
feeding and opportunity elsewhere.
The Antediluvian made one of its periodic great
wanderings at this time, returning centuries later with
the childe Montano,
whose name we associate with
the foolishness of honor.
And please check your soruces and don't throw numbers to make an impression.

Page 65 of the Clanbook Lasombr 1ed [Cb-L, pg. 65] doesn't say anything about Montano's embrace date

Page 58 of Europe [DA: E, pg. 58] says just "first child of the founder of the Magistri. He rules Castle d'Ombro..." no info about the embrace date

Page 58 of Guide to the Camarilla [GttC, pg. 58]only says "Background: The Lasombra antitribu have existed as long as the Sabbat has, which is to say
that more than one clan member agreed with Montano's choice to turn on h is
clanmates."

I will not check the other sources, as it is obvious you have not checked yours and it would be a waste of my time.

QUOTE
No, that's not how canon works. That's how you intend it you work but fail to do so to express your intention without sources.

I posted my sources, and quoted them line by line.

You are the one who is throwing sources in the vain hope to hit something. You haven't even read the thing you are posting.

Or you can tell me where on page 58 of Guide to the Camarilla they talk about the embrace of Montano or where in Dark Alliance is said that the Slumbering Giant knows about the Assamite Castes/ or in the other case (where you understood just "more educated") where it sa shown that Cristo or Lerterimas were more educated than Beckett.

QUOTE
When there's an Assamite as old as you, like Anath who actually have Auspex as clan discipline or Nakurtum, what would happen in between 8 millennia of intrigue?
Ah incredible you must really have sources no one knows! Please, post sources that says that Anath and Nakurtum are as old as Ur-Shulgi. With page, please.
The only NAMED Assamite older than Ur-Shulgi is Mancheaka. But please, shed light and show us that Anath (an Assamite we don't even know what Caste was) and Nakurtum are "as old as Ur-Shulgi".

QUOTE
Why do you suggest that Assamite are all-knowledgeable of infernalism?/

The phrase was about the Demon of Lair of the Hidden.
Nikanuuranu has Portal 5, Light 5, Humanity 2, which one of these lores allows him to know about Ur-Shulgi?

There's a very BIG difference between Baali and infernalism. Tanitbaal codified the variation of Road of Sin (pleasure) at Camilla's (who was Prince) choice.

Not that big, every Baali is an infernalist, what changes is the aim. Molochim use the Infernalism to keep demons appeased and slumbering, the Nergali use Infernalism to destroy this world
Besides, that's a strawman, I didn't said anything about the Road of Sin. I said that the vampiric population of Rome didn't noticed that Tanit was a Baali.

QUOTE
Marcus Vitel was never exposed due to:

a) his (metagame) pin
b) his (metagame) Obfuscate power
There you have your first answer.

QUOTE
Sangris was never revealed because there was no Cainite that could actually perceive him.
There you have your second one

He is more powerful than the one who could care and he has special plot armor that protects him from the ones who could, but not care.

QUOTE
Perhaps Zhou was working on a way to expose him (completely forgotten plot). BTW, the same edition you are quoting on Montreal is the same edition that hold Carolina Valez as Archbishop of Montreal and two books later, returns to Alfred Benezri being Archbishop.
You see that you don't know your sources?
First of all I ask what was the 2nd edition book after Montreal by Night that said that Benezri was Archbishop.

Second, the whole passage was explained at the time of Revised. In Nights of the Prophecy

Page 135.
QUOTE
THE RISE OF ALFRED BENEZRI

Mercy spent the next month looking for Bellemare, but found nothing. Furious, she turned her attention to Cairo and Carolina Valez, charging them both with infernalism. For the second time in less than a decade, Montreal’s archbishop was on trial. Mercy accused Cairo of traffi cking with demons and
Valez with conspiring to allow Pierre Bellemare to escape. Cairo was doomed from the very beginning; her pleas of innocence fell on deaf ears. Branded an infernalist, she did not meet Final Death, but instead became a torture-threshold test subject for the Inquisition in Mexico City. Of the other Cainites tried, mainly the members of Zarnovich’s Circus, all were granted ad cautelams.
The trial came as a complete surprise to Valez. While she was confi dent in her innocence, she had a secret — her mortal daughter. Knowing that the trial would probably unearth Josefina, Valez chose Benezri as her defendant and promised to step down as archbishop in exchange for her daughter’s protection. Carolina gambled that Benezri’s ambition blinded him to her weakness and transgression. She was right. Carolina Valez won her innocence thanks to Benezri. A fortnight later she ceded the archdiocese to the Shepherd, but to avoid suspicion, Alfred and Valez staged a Monomacy duel. Valez honored her part of the bargain and lost for the sake of her daughter. She retreated into the night, no longer an archbishop but a simple abbot and custodian of the communal haven.

QUOTE
And please, don't quote me Chaos Factor as a reference on Nergal..., please.
I wasn’t, I was quoting BJD.
Which, I suspect, you didn't read. Just as many things you are misquoting.

BJD, page 151, the Center does not hold
QUOTE
Beckett:
On the subject of the High Inquisitor’s delusions, Nergal, if not a complete myth, was a Methuselah thought to be the progenitor of the Baali bloodline (or one of the progenitors — their creation myths are strange even by my standards). I’m told one of Sister Maria’s hobbyhorses for the past few decades has been legends about Nergal, whom she believes to be the same entity that once posed as Huitzilopochtli and who fought the Black Hand in the time of Cortez.
Add that to your list of absurdly improbable suspects in this surreal political thriller you’ve wandered into.
Sincerely
Anatole

page 160
Upon meeting Sandoza, both Kindred are startled when the legendarily ruthless High Inquisitor wel*comes Lucita as a long-lost and beloved older sister, and even more so when Sandoza recognizes Lucita as Regent. She also reveals her own beliefs about the problems facing the Sect — she blames everything on the semi-mythical bloodline of demon-worshipping vampires known as the Baali, whose leader, Ner*gal, she believes rests in torpor somewhere beneath Mexico City. In essence, this is a second front in the Gehenna Crusade, one that the Sabbat Inquisition considers to be much more important than the war far away in the east.

This post has been edited by Lord Ex: 2020-02-24, 10:50
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Lord Ex
2020-02-23, 14:54
Post #12


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97楼:
QUOTE
Your vision on the castes issue is extremely limited
Facts are constantly updated as editions come an go. The castes were a formal implementation in Dark Ages Libellus Sanguinis III, pg. 58-60. Younger kindred like the Camarilla may not know about the castes, of course. But Baali knew about them, since they cursed a specific caste. Salubri who fought alongside the Assamites against the Baali, is impossible to think that they do not realize that some "fight" and some do "magic", and they fought alongside for millennia. During the times of the Second City, Haqim entered and his brothers had childer, such Cainites saw with their own eyes that Haqim embraced judges, then came with sorcerers and warriors (Clanbook Assamite revised pg. 9-12). They all lived in the same city, therefore when childer of other clans saw with their own eyes how things worked with Clan Assamite, wouldn't they explain to their own childer how clan Assamite works out?
My point being, it is impossible that those who knew the Second City didn't explain about the 13 clans to their childer on and on. When Haqim leaves to Alamut, such knowledge of the Assamites by the other clans is still there.
1)支系的概念最初于1995年的刺客氏族书中引进。

2)巴力不会真的和其它血族交流。所以巴力知道什么没有关系,他们不会分享自己的知识,也没有理由向他人解释刺客为何不单纯是嗜血的怪物。

3)萨洛比是隐秘者,死得也像隐秘者。他们对其它氏族来说是如此的隐秘和未知以至于睿魔尔能成功让所有人坚信平和的萨洛比是吸榨之氏族。

4)几乎没有在世的第二城时期的幸存者:那时的知识完全是口耳相传。其历史很可能就因为目击者的消失而失传了。而且,许多足够古老的血族可能压根就不会涉足血族社会。沃拉克足够古老到记得吧?肯定啊。但他会和其它人说吗?不会,他甚至数千年都没出过家门。

原文:
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Originally posted by Saga

First. Tegyrius mentions his sire in Clanbook Assamite revised (pg. 98) that he remembered the Second City. Tegyrius is vizier, therefore his sire Anath (BJD, pg. 102) is vizier. It wouldn't be wise for a childe of Haqim to lie about such claims, now wouldn't it?
Izhim ur Bhaal also claims Anath as his sire. And he is a warrior.

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The position of Old Man of the Mountain is held by the Eldest childe of Haqim. Sha'hiri step down when the vizier Nakurtum awakened (this happens in Player Guide to Low Clans, pg. 20), this means that Nakurtum was embraced before Sha'hiri.
You don't know how old Sha'hiri was. Even if Sha'hiri was embraced in 1000 B.c and Nakutrum was embraced in 1500 b.c that would not make Nakurtum "as old as" as Ur-Shulgi, who is roughly 8000 years old currently.

You made a statemente: Anath and Nakurtum are as old as Sha'hiri, then prove it and post sources about when they were embraced.

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On Lasombra history know that most of the revised clanbooks are told by someone within the clan. In Lasombra's case, everything is told by Conrad (pg. 98 + plus the entirety of Clan Novel trilogy, who were both written by Bruce Baugh) (who is Andrew Emory's sire), this means that such knowledge is an approximate of what a cainite embraced in the 19th century Congo can know. She does claimed she knew every african Lasombra there is, and she was terrified when she saw Montano for the first time. (this happens in the Clan Novel trilogy Lasombra). Montano's given embrace date is an approximate, since the knowledge of clan Lasombra was burned down when Gratiano attacked the Castle d'Ombro with the anarchs. Now think this, Montano appearing around the 15th or 14th century BC and he is usually considered as the Eldest Lasombra there is. This means that from the time of the Second City up to Montano, every single Lasombra is dead.
Do you have any source that says that Montano is older than how reported in Clanbook Lasombra Revised?
We got a canon source with a date. Do you have a canon source with a date?

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Your vision on the castes issue is extremely limited
Facts are constantly updated as editions come an go. The castes were a formal implementation in Dark Ages Libellus Sanguinis III, pg. 58-60. Younger kindred like the Camarilla may not know about the castes, of course. But Baali knew about them, since they cursed a specific caste. Salubri who fought alongside the Assamites against the Baali, is impossible to think that they do not realize that some "fight" and some do "magic", and they fought alongside for millennia. During the times of the Second City, Haqim entered and his brothers had childer, such Cainites saw with their own eyes that Haqim embraced judges, then came with sorcerers and warriors (Clanbook Assamite revised pg. 9-12). They all lived in the same city, therefore when childer of other clans saw with their own eyes how things worked with Clan Assamite, wouldn't they explain to their own childer how clan Assamite works out?
My point being, it is impossible that those who knew the Second City didn't explain about the 13 clans to their childer on and on. When Haqim leaves to Alamut, such knowledge of the Assamites by the other clans is still there.
1) The Caste concept was first introduced in Assamite Clanbook, 1995.

2)Baali do not really talk with other Cainites. So what the Baali knew is irrilevant, they would not share their knowledge and had no reason to explain to others that there were Assamite who were not bloodthirsty murderers.


3)Salubri where hermit and died like hermit. They were so hermit and unkown to other Clans that the Tremere managed to convince everyone that the peaceful Salubri were a Clan of Diablerist.

4) There are almost no vampire survivors from the time Second City: that knowledge, that was transmitted orally, might simply be lost as witness disappeared from history. Even more, many of the vampires who are old enough might just not be very inclined to dwelve into Cainite society. Was Yorak old enough to remember? Yes. Was it likely that he would have speaked to others? No, he didn't even left the Chatedral for milennia. Besides

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Tyler, for all her stats, she escaped the combined forces of the archons to Cartagena and there she met Helena who wanted to turn her into her personal assassin (Chicago by Night, pg. 67). Now if you were a methuselah that remembers Carthage (where Brujah and their Antediluvian, Assamite and Baali clans resided), wouldn't you teach such assassin to be careful about the Clan of assassins known as the Assamites, by that I mean the castes?

By Rufus I meant the Gangrel methuselah of Andorra. Gangrel have "gathers" their meetings in which they hunt and talk and brag. Wouldn't any single gather in 8 millennia mention about how the Assamites are divided in castes? Up here someone did remember that Alexander was embraced in Athens in 700 BC. It is extremely unlikely that such knowledge didn't passed on.

This is wild speculation. There are no proof of your assertion, and are based on a plethora of "what if".
As of official stats Tyler has academics 1 and doesn't know anything about the occult. And there are no entries that suggest that Helena ever told her anything about Carthage.
Same goes for Rufus, you are building a counterfactual scenario based on nothing, which could be replied with other wild speculation and more conterfactual hypotesis like "Helena was afraid that Tyler would use the Assamite to kill her", to "Rufus didn't answered the Gathers because he was a loner like Enkidu" or "simply every one that was at the gather with Rufus did know only of the Warriors and supposed that every Assamite was a warrior".

Again, wild speculation, unsupported by sources.

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On Montreal by Night, yeah everyone knows that Carolina Valez was Archbishop, then stepped down during the "House of Lies" event. Lets keep and record here, Lore of the Clans got out before BJD and check pg. 292 of LotC, we have Carolina Valez as Archbishop again, then we move on to BJD and we have Alfred Benezri as Archbishop. This is cleary an edition that changes metaplot from book to book (and probably in V5, Carolina Valez was Archbishop again). I truly doubt that the excuse here is constant monomacy.
This is because you do not understand how V20 works: V20 Corebook and Lore of the Clans are setted before Revised edition. Valez leave the throne in Revised.
BJD is set AFTER Revised edition.

Again as the Onyxpath community manager explained.

V20 is explicitly "metaplot agnostic." The core rulebook provided a default status that wasn't quite 2nd Edition, and wasn't quite Revised Edition. It provided options so people could pick it up and play whatever era of Vampire they liked best.
It's set in the present, but before a lot of the big metaplot happens. Gehenna is still a nebulous event that may happen in the future, rather than something that happened around the turn of the century.
Beckett's Jyhad Diary picks up the post-Revised metaplot, and sets the stage for V5.
Looks simple enough to me, doesn't it? Corebook and Lore of the Clan are setted before the events of Night of the Prophecy (like, for instance, Ur-Shulgi awakening, that happens in Night of the Prophecy) while BJD is set during the events of Revised, and after them.


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I know my sources, and the fact that you are questioning them, it seems you clearly don't comprehend yours. I don't throw names at random, I combine the knowledge of every single book there is, everything I asked the authors of the books they written and actual historical data, and I'm really good at it. You are clearly unable to answer the questions on why is extremely unlikely having ur-Shulgi as the 3rd Baali, though I understand that writers sometimes decide to change stuff (like Hardestadt/Jurgen case). I understand that, but sometimes this leaves huge plot holes, plot holes I can see very clearly, and I see them all.

If you have doubts on an book, ask the author about it, they were all really cool people.

Nope, actually you do not understand you sources and you are building hypotesis groundend on counterfactual scenarios (Tyler must had known!), what if and "it couldn't be otherwise! (Oh for sure someone told Rufus at a gather!). Or just bare strawman (Nakurtum must be as old as Ur-Shulgi, because Nakurtum was older than Sha'hiri! Even if we know nothing of Sha'hiri embrace!).

This post has been edited by Lord Ex: 2020-10-04, 16:22
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Lord Ex
2020-02-23, 14:55
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全有关讨论翻译完毕
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毅不容辞
2020-02-23, 15:00
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有一个问题一直没有机会问:VtM所说的巴力和DtF中的Earthbound巴力是一回事吗?或者说二者是什么关系?
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ObSolitaire
2020-02-23, 15:51
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我看提到了Cybele和她的女儿奥林匹亚丝,Cybele在莫卡维书里认为是莫卡维4代,但在巴力书末尾说她是撒旦的子嗣,应该也是巴力书里的另外几个四代之一了,另一个是杀了米-凯-利的,创造君士坦丁堡牺牲之井的玛-丽-亚
(我猜测Cybele是通过那个变节者仪式或者唤魔的再拥Re-embrace被转换了;这种转换很有意思,我觉得这个能力给巴力提供了大量资源和其他学识,归化者可以在原氏族异能,隐身,威仪里选两个,加上唤魔当自己的新氏族能力;vda20里说了一个巴力玛士撒拉创造了一个延长痛苦的力量,来源于3级唤魔和3级时光,,)
最后说Cybele被12个真布鲁赫给摧毁了,我开始觉得真布鲁赫也在巴力这种事情里掺和过,巴力应该也是有他们的归化者
有很多人认为阿舒尔是卡帕的另一个名字,,,有个故事说撒旦Adriel/nergal被认为是阿舒尔的孩子,他是调查恶魔教派被腐化的,但是这个应该是一个巴力们糊弄其他血族的幌子,阿舒尔是卡帕很可能是对的
被推翻的老设定里说那个无名是叫Seker,扫罗自己创造的,结果导致了扫罗自己的末日;当然这个肯定是被废弃了(红死三部曲的)

This post has been edited by ObSolitaire: 2020-02-23, 15:56
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