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> 【范统】《中国》 我在亚马逊上写了上千字骂这本书
写丹青
2013-11-27, 12:22
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首先附上原文:
I read over 20 GURPS books, most of them have text book quality that far beyond the need of simple game playing purpose. And because of the trusting I gave to GURPS and as a Chinese I am, I bought the GURPS China.

And it is the first GURPS book I seriously feel regret for having bought it!

This book is full of WTF surprises during your reading process if you are a Chinese like I am or you at least have the RIGHT general picture about Chinese history and culture. I actually yelling "WTF!!" in midnight because of the shock this book gave to me.

Such as:
Shan Hai Jing is the God of Water in China. (WoW! This one really get me,)

China was ruled by barbarians every few generations. (Where was this idea came from? China was conquered twice, that's all. And the mongolian paid the price of about 90% of their population been eliminated after their short-lived dynasty been overthrow。As for manchus, they were such hardcore fundamentalist of the imperial tradition that they actually stop the enlightenment process that already begun in China at that period.)

China itself never developed as complex a Buddhism as Japan, India and Tibet. (Again, wrong story. In fact, most Buddhism factions that still exist today were set up in China, like the Chan faction which the Shaolin Temple belongs to. Buddhism was nearly extinct in India long before the modern time and the Japanese Buddhism is primitive contrast to what you can find in China even today.)

China forbid the civil right of holding weapon during its imperial age. (Wrong. Only Chin and Yuan dynasty ban all weapon, and they did not last very long. Different dynasties hold different law about this civil right. But during all the time, Chinese civilian can have any kinds of sword and bow. Only the weapon be considering have serious military use would be ban, like spears longer than a grown man's height, lancers, and crossbow have the strength more than roughly 60 pounds. What could really trigger the nervous of government was not the weapon, but the armor. Holding any kinds of armor would be illegal in most dynasties, but many people purchased and keep them at home anyway. Especially the people used or still in service would do that. Fire arms was never illegal in China before the republic.)

Empire have permanent secret police department. (Not true. Only one dynasty, The Ming, have that. And the Jin YI WEI of Ming dynasty was considered by many Chinese people the less sinister figure of secret police. They focused on corrupt bureaucracy far more than normal messes . Song dynasty had a permanent intelligence agency, it was a CIA like stuff and had nothing to do with watching its own people.)

Such kind of mind interrupting information keep jumping out during my reading of this book. I want to say the overall quality of this book is good, like a polite person should do in their interview of a book. But I can not do that. This book got many things right, that is all. But the writer simply lacks the proper general knowledge level this topic needs. He can gave good information from quote the right history book, but his overall ignorant nature(to China, specificly) kept him giving the readers devastating misleads.

If you want to get useful knowledge of China, do not read this book. Even Wikipedia is better than this. For game purpose, do your own research. This book can't give you exciting adventure idea because the writer simply does not know what was exciting in the different times of China.

I should not write this at all, because by looking at the rarely happened 0 reaction of a GURPS book on Amazon, I knew this book already sank.

Let it keep that way.

This post has been edited by 写丹青: 2013-11-27, 13:33
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写丹青
2013-11-27, 12:46
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用人话说是这样的:
我读过超过20本范统,这些书中的大部分都有教科书般的品质,其素质远远超出了单纯游戏的需要。因为我对范统的信任,还有我自己是个中国人,我买了范统《中国》这本书。

而这也是我唯一一次后悔买了一本范统。

这本书会在阅读过程中使您持续性的蛋疼,如果您和我一样是中国人或者您至少对中国历史和文化有一个正确的大致性了解。

蛋疼范例:

山海经是中国的水之神。(真心卧槽!俺太欣赏这一条了!)

中国每隔几代人就被野蛮人统治一次。(懒得翻译吐槽,大家自便吧。)

中国从没像日本,印度和西藏那样发展出过自己成熟复杂的佛教宗派。(还是懒的翻译吐槽。我的大意是现在有影响的佛教宗派基本全是起源于中国,日本佛教原始且缺乏戒律,印度佛教早就式微了。)

古代中国禁止平民拥有任何武器。(只有秦和元这么干。)

中国古代一直有常设的秘密警察机构,并且秘密警察的首脑是皇帝座下最重要的大臣。(我的原文中没这么写,但书里确实是这么写的。。。。。。)

这一类提神醒脑的信息持续地从书中的字里行间跳出来。我是想说这本书整体素质还不错,就像每一个有礼貌的书评作者应该做的那样。但臣妾做不到啊!这本书有不少写对了的地方,但也就仅此而已了。作者完全缺乏驾驭这个主题所需要的基本知识水平。他可以引用合适的历史书来给出正确的信息,但他自己无知(对于中国)的本性使他停不住地误导读者。

如果你想得到有用的关于中国的信息,别读这本书。维基百科也比这个强。如果是为游戏做准备的话,自己去找材料读吧。这书给不了你刺激的冒险点子因为作者根本不知道不同时代的中国有什么样的有趣的东西。

其实我压根不该写这些,因为只要看看这是少有的完全没反应没评价的范统书,我就该知道这书早就沉了。

就让它沉吧。
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写丹青
2013-11-27, 13:07
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以上是我的书评。写那个的时候还没读完这本书,所以有些槽点没有加上,比如:

《金瓶梅》是中国历史上最伟大的小说,没有任何其他作品能与之相比。它讲述了一名商人西门庆的冒险故事(葡萄架的胜利!这也是范统《中国》中提到的唯一一本中国小说。我不知道你们怎么想,我差点把自己眼珠子抠出来。)

关羽死于流氓团伙之手。(可以作为不错的穿越小说开头场景。)

汉朝:206BC-184BC(书中的章节题头是这么标注的。我揉了揉眼睛。。。。。。说明这书连校对都不仔细)

关羽躺在桃树下睡觉时,过来了两个汉子。。。。。。他们被彼此打动,立志拯救中国。。。。(我擦去眼角的泪水,三国无双是一个感人的史诗故事。)

诸如此类,难以枚举。还有说班超打算率领汉军一部去征服罗马,就在离罗马边境只有几天路程时被召回。(我想作者是混起点的。)

不得不说这书里有些东西写的不错,比方说对秦始皇的长达一整章的生平描述就很有美剧的风格。虽说把嬴政是吕不韦的种当成史实说的言之凿凿,即便对游戏参考书来说也不是太好。不过这种【不错】就像一碗翔中点缀的糖果,要把它们挑出来品尝并且发出赞美,恐怕有些强人所难。

还有皇帝名字搞错的,这就不用说了,作者显然没有阅读中文史料的能力。

总之,我做了多余的事,买了本早就绝版的没人气的书,还发了一番完全没必要的牢骚。

This post has been edited by 写丹青: 2013-11-27, 13:21
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写丹青
2014-07-13, 21:54
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过去了很久,今天偶然看了一下亚马逊,竟然有后续发展了。
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写丹青
2014-07-13, 21:55
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Initial post: Jun 29, 2014 12:53:15 PM PDT
Doc Savage says:
Ha ha ha ha! Your pro-Chinese prejudice makes you unable to accept objective truths about Chinese history. Hilarious how your bigotry shines! On the other hand, you could have a bright future as an apparatchik.

这是回复我的书评的。

This post has been edited by 写丹青: 2014-07-13, 21:55
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写丹青
2014-07-13, 21:57
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5.0 out of 5 stars Excellent RPG resouce on Chinese culture and history, June 29, 2014
By Doc Savage
This review is from: GURPS China (Paperback)
Excellent RPG resouce on Chinese culture and history, well up to classic GURPS sourcebook standards. Ignore the 1-star review by the pro-Chinese bigot who is unable to admit to any unsavory aspects of Chinese culture and history, as he has clearly been brainwashed and adopts the party line of Chinese infallibility.
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这是同一个人的书评。下面是我写给他的回复。





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Your initial post: Jul 13, 2014 6:49:17 AM PDT
Shieldon says:
I seriously doubt you have bought and read this book. If you do have read it, please write your own review. I will be more than happy to read it.
The problem of this book is obvious enough that anyone who have built a academically proper knowledge for Chinese history can not just let it go.
I don't need to be brainwashed to notice how irresponsible this book is. Show this book to your world history professor, hear what he/she will say.
Ignorance is not your fault. A lot of people in west have trouble to find first-hand resources about Chinese history. But instead of questioning my points, you were so hurry to begun a "party bigot" talk. Try to use this attitude on your own people, see what will come.
I wrote that review long time ago, never thought it would bring a person like you. I decide I should not ignore you. There are something that I am not talking to you, but to the silent majority.
The world is changing. The time that non-Chinese writers dressing up China like their wish is going to face its end.
And then you will know, I am not the one who was brainwashed.
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写丹青
2014-07-13, 22:02
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不管别人怎么想,我并不觉得自己是在做无聊的事。有些该说的话,说的人太少了。
就像YOUTUBE上的L叔所说的那样,有些话需要有人说出来,不是向着你的对手,而是向着沉默的大多数。
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Triglav
2014-07-14, 01:16
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Oops, wrong wonderland
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QUOTE(写丹青 @ 2014-07-13, 22:02) *

不管别人怎么想,我并不觉得自己是在做无聊的事。有些该说的话,说的人太少了。
就像YOUTUBE上的L叔所说的那样,有些话需要有人说出来,不是向着你的对手,而是向着沉默的大多数。
从这帖发出来到现在一直都有在看,那种人确实不该忽略,不过跟这类人说太多实在是有点浪费自己时间的嫌疑,除非你打算靠戏弄他打发一点时间……

不过楼主有个破绽在于,你最初的评论只说了“A, B, C, D 是错的”,没说错在哪儿,这个情况下,对于不聪明的外国孩子来说,其实无从判断你的评论是否正确——因为他很可能除了欠缺知识以外还缺乏去google的动力,或许较好但一定较花时间的方式是,每条吐槽附上一个英文wiki链接。

当然, 现在这么做或许晚了,因为对那个回复你的人来说,现在已经不是讲理的时候了,我猜。

This post has been edited by Triglav: 2014-07-14, 01:28
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benran
2014-07-14, 01:38
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魔宴顾问·DC大主教·纯白领主仆从·特珞吉祥物·口拙者·省略号柿饼种·逆天尝试中
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The reason dies when the brainwash borns.
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钛豌豆
2014-07-29, 15:45
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QUOTE
《金瓶梅》是中国历史上最伟大的小说,没有任何其他作品能与之相比。它讲述了一名商人西门庆的冒险故事(葡萄架的胜利!这也是范统《中国》中提到的唯一一本中国小说。我不知道你们怎么想,我差点把自己眼珠子抠出来。)

QUOTE
据美国《纽约时报》11月19日报道,芝加哥大学研究中国文学的荣誉退休教授、年近80岁的芮效卫曾在1950年走进中国南京一个二手书书店,发现了小说《金瓶梅》。后来,他花了近40年时间设法把这本小说全部翻译成英文,直至普林斯顿大学出版社出版了该书第五卷,即最后一卷后,翻译工作才全部完成。芮效卫教授近日回忆说:“当年我还是一个十几岁的男孩,为能看到色情读物而感到兴奋。但我认为它在其他方面同样令人着迷。”
哥伦比亚大学中国文学教授商伟说:“他(芮效卫)认为自己有责任充分了解这本书的所有内容,甚至对其中顺便提及的部分也是如此。完成这类翻译工程需要具有某种执着精神。”
芮效卫的这部翻译作品有近3000页,属于鸿篇巨制,有着纷繁复杂的人物关系(数百个有名有姓的人物),以及大量日常细节描写,更不用说芮效卫所做的4400多个尾注了。鉴于此,普通读者或许也需要有某种执著精神才能读完这套五卷的翻译作品。
“它不仅是一部翻译作品,还是一部参考书,”匹兹堡大学访问学者张义鸿(音)说,“它打开了了解中国文学和文化的一扇窗。”他正把芮效卫所做的一些注释翻译成中文。
接下来就要谈谈有关性的话题了。即便没有什么人实际上能够看到这部分内容,它还是增加了这部小说的魅力。尽管人们可以轻而易举地从网站上下载《金瓶梅》电子读物,但完整版的纸质小说在中国仍难觅踪迹。
报道称,甚至对一些西方文学学者而言,该书的淫秽程度同样令人惊讶。
俄亥俄州立大学中国文学教授帕特丽夏•西伯说:“我在讲解这部作品时,尽管我的学生对它的名声已有所了解,但他们还是惊得目瞪口呆。性虐待,把不同寻常的物品用作性爱玩具,过度服用壮阳药,在各种邪恶的情况下发生的性行为—只要你能想到的,书里全都有。”
学者指出,《金瓶梅》远不仅仅是一部性爱小说。它是中国首部不以神话英雄或军事冒险为题材,而重点关注普通百姓日常生活的长篇小说,记录了有关饮食、服饰、家庭生活习俗、医药、娱乐和葬殡仪式等最为详细的信息。
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xiezhenggang
2014-08-18, 21:41
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好不容易出了个20兴奋过头在Skeletal Dragon面前掷CH判断骰的CM之王
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我想说,可惜我英文实在太烂,不然这种无脑反共喷子简直是在撩拨我的炮捻子……
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Shrewd
2014-08-19, 14:07
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每次看到老外们写的关于中国的部分中各种错误时,不禁深深地他们为其他文献纪录更少的文明所写的东西准确性深深担忧起来。文献之国中国有那么多东西可以参考,仍然是这个结果的话,谁能保证他们在解读其他没中国发达的文明没有问题呢,毕竟可以进纠正他们的人可能都死光了/书都烧光了……
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Milk
2014-08-19, 23:18
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经群众长期全面细致考察而认定的光荣团员,授予头衔“公开的好喵”!
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QUOTE
like the Chan faction

我怀疑这里可以用Zen这样歪国人可能熟悉一些
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Triglav
2014-08-20, 18:41
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Oops, wrong wonderland
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QUOTE(Milk @ 2014-08-19, 23:18) *

我怀疑这里可以用Zen这样歪国人可能熟悉一些
可以说Zen school Mahayana 显得比较装13 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
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白鲸汉
2015-12-29, 11:26
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QUOTE(Milk @ 2014-08-19, 09:18) *

我怀疑这里可以用Zen这样歪国人可能熟悉一些

Zen的说法包括禅宗思想也是日本大小两铃木(大拙和俊隆)引入西方的吧。客观讲,禅宗的理论的确不如很多密宗深奥,其追求的是证道和日常修行。当然,深奥也不是评价的唯一标准。不过论深奥,玄奘的唯识宗失传了(有追求原教旨翻译的原因,他真不是处女座?)。唐密的衣钵由空海带去日本成真言宗了。之后佛教在中国的发展真不看好。。

《金瓶梅》作为中国第一部世俗小说地位很高,堪比文艺复兴的《十日谈》。再说,文学作品本就见仁见智。。

北朝/唐/元/青算是异族吧。有韩国朋友对我们的教科书把蒙古人不当异族很诧异。。

总之,虽然我不了解泛统的一贯调性,但这些戏说/野史/段子的吐槽和恶趣味,也是为了增加游戏性和设定的话题性吧。
最后,我也很欣赏LZ的态度,人应该defense自己认为对的东西,但认真也别太较真喽。真要不吐不快,就索性抽丝剥茧论证个完全,到那时,其实打不打败对手也无所谓了,反而要感谢他们带来的动力呢~(我当时为了反驳逻辑思维就写了篇关于甘地的文章)
共勉!
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